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Forgive my naïveté regarding Podman. On macOS, does this use the same virtualization approach that docker desktop uses?

mmcdermott 3y ago
Same basic approach in that it is a Linux VM that actually runs the containers, but it is based on qemu instead of VirtualBox.
- alphabettsy 3y ago
  Is Docker still using a VirtualBox based solution? I thought they were using the macOS virt framework.
  - nonameiguess 3y ago
    I doubt they're using VirtualBox. VirtualBox didn't even run on Apple Silicon until 9 months ago, but Docker Desktop still worked, so it must have been using something else.
  - cpuguy83 3y ago
    No, it has never used virtual box. Originally it used hypervisor.framework. I wouldn't be surprised if they now use the virtualization framework (newer higher-level abstraction on macOS).
  - tauchunfall 3y ago
    colima allows to chose between qemu and apple virtualization framework. I found there is not much diffence in performance between both on my intel macbook. I think it will not take long until rancher also updates to latest lima to support apple virtualization. but I haven't checked the latest release notes.
    - Art9681 3y ago
      That's because QEMU can do hardware acceleration in an x86 host but not in M architecture. But as far as I know, only the Apple framework can do hardware acceleration or use Rosetta 2 to make things near native speed on an M-series Mac.
dboreham 3y ago
Yes.
seaal 3y ago
Yes. Perhaps OrbStack[1] is what you're looking for. [1] https://orbstack.dev/ https://orbstack.dev/
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  Thanks I’m gonna try it out. Sucks that it’s closed source but I do so much work in containers these days that it’s worth it just for the speed
- mogwire 3y ago
  Orbstack also uses a virtual machine. How does it work? Why is it fast? OrbStack uses a lightweight Linux virtual machine with tightly-integrated, purpose-built services and networking written in a mix of Swift, Go, Rust, and C. See Architecture for more details.
  - Art9681 3y ago
    It's using Apple Virtualization Framework + Rosetta acceleration instead of third party hypervisor like QEMU. There are ways to do this via the CLI with a simple one line command if you have Xcode installed.
- bloopernova 3y ago
  Thank you for that link! It's a very interesting product, it does use a VM, but seems to have some "special sauce" code to improve the speed of things. It also says it shares the kernel among multiple VMs. Very cool stuff.
  - Art9681 3y ago
    Its using this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
    - bloopernova 3y ago
      Interesting, I thought Docker Desktop was doing that too. When I have time (HA!) I will try to compare podman/orb/docker a bit more.
mfer 3y ago
To run Linux containers you will always need Linux somewhere. On macOS this would be in a VM that's usually managed by the tooling. Docker Desktop, Rancher Desktop, lima, and others all do this. On Windows you have the Windows Subsystem for Linux v2 that uses a VM. For simplicity, the tooling often tries to make this simple and transparent to use.
- pid-1 3y ago
  Fun fact: in Linux, Docker Desktop also uses a managed VM. https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#why-does-docker-desktop-for-linux-run-a-vm https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#why-does-doc...
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - v3ss0n 3y ago
    Yeah that's the worst thing docker did
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Art9681 3y ago
      If its hardware accelerated the performance difference would likely not matter. And you're not going to deploy a high performance container on a desktop environment since edit:[the desktop] will consume a much greater deal of resources from your host than the VM ever will. For deploying a development environment or self-hosted services it's fine.
      - v3ss0n 3y ago
        It sure does. It crippled my intern gaming laptop just later found out that she is using docker desktop instead of docker.io in Linux.after reinstalling that , there's no visible performance problems running containers

Same basic approach in that it is a Linux VM that actually runs the containers, but it is based on qemu instead of VirtualBox.

alphabettsy 3y ago
Is Docker still using a VirtualBox based solution? I thought they were using the macOS virt framework.
- nonameiguess 3y ago
  I doubt they're using VirtualBox. VirtualBox didn't even run on Apple Silicon until 9 months ago, but Docker Desktop still worked, so it must have been using something else.
- cpuguy83 3y ago
  No, it has never used virtual box. Originally it used hypervisor.framework. I wouldn't be surprised if they now use the virtualization framework (newer higher-level abstraction on macOS).
- tauchunfall 3y ago
  colima allows to chose between qemu and apple virtualization framework. I found there is not much diffence in performance between both on my intel macbook. I think it will not take long until rancher also updates to latest lima to support apple virtualization. but I haven't checked the latest release notes.
  - Art9681 3y ago
    That's because QEMU can do hardware acceleration in an x86 host but not in M architecture. But as far as I know, only the Apple framework can do hardware acceleration or use Rosetta 2 to make things near native speed on an M-series Mac.

dboreham 3y ago

Yes.

seaal 3y ago

Yes. Perhaps OrbStack[1] is what you're looking for. [1] https://orbstack.dev/ https://orbstack.dev/

SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
Thanks I’m gonna try it out. Sucks that it’s closed source but I do so much work in containers these days that it’s worth it just for the speed
mogwire 3y ago
Orbstack also uses a virtual machine. How does it work? Why is it fast? OrbStack uses a lightweight Linux virtual machine with tightly-integrated, purpose-built services and networking written in a mix of Swift, Go, Rust, and C. See Architecture for more details.
- Art9681 3y ago
  It's using Apple Virtualization Framework + Rosetta acceleration instead of third party hypervisor like QEMU. There are ways to do this via the CLI with a simple one line command if you have Xcode installed.
bloopernova 3y ago
Thank you for that link! It's a very interesting product, it does use a VM, but seems to have some "special sauce" code to improve the speed of things. It also says it shares the kernel among multiple VMs. Very cool stuff.
- Art9681 3y ago
  Its using this: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization
  - bloopernova 3y ago
    Interesting, I thought Docker Desktop was doing that too. When I have time (HA!) I will try to compare podman/orb/docker a bit more.

mfer 3y ago

To run Linux containers you will always need Linux somewhere. On macOS this would be in a VM that's usually managed by the tooling. Docker Desktop, Rancher Desktop, lima, and others all do this. On Windows you have the Windows Subsystem for Linux v2 that uses a VM. For simplicity, the tooling often tries to make this simple and transparent to use.

pid-1 3y ago
Fun fact: in Linux, Docker Desktop also uses a managed VM. https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#why-does-docker-desktop-for-linux-run-a-vm https://docs.docker.com/desktop/faqs/linuxfaqs/#why-does-doc...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- v3ss0n 3y ago
  Yeah that's the worst thing docker did
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - Art9681 3y ago
    If its hardware accelerated the performance difference would likely not matter. And you're not going to deploy a high performance container on a desktop environment since edit:[the desktop] will consume a much greater deal of resources from your host than the VM ever will. For deploying a development environment or self-hosted services it's fine.
    - v3ss0n 3y ago
      It sure does. It crippled my intern gaming laptop just later found out that she is using docker desktop instead of docker.io in Linux.after reinstalling that , there's no visible performance problems running containers