5 ms·

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

by causi 3y ago

haswell 3y ago
I have a bad visual memory. But when I remember things, instead of seeing things, it’s a general sense of knowing, and at times a sense of feeling. If you asked me what it was like on the beach last weekend, I could tell you it was sandy, there was a vivid sunset, and there were a lot of people. I don’t see these things, I just know them. If you asked me to describe the sunset in more detail, I might recall moments that stood out to me (there was this moment when the sun was creating this mile-long reflection from a building on the other side of the water), but that highlight is separate from the general recollection of the experience, i.e. it doesn’t come from looking back at the sunset itself, it’s an independent thing that stands out in my mind about the experience. I don’t believe I actually “hear” sounds/my inner dialog, but sounds are easier to work with in my head. I’m musically inclined, and good at improvising on the piano. But I think the sounds I “hear” are closer to a reflection of the feelings I feel when hearing those sounds. This is hard to describe, but if I wanted to intentionally imagine a melody, I can almost feel it in the back of my throat, as if my imagination of the sound is the feeling of what it’d be like to make that sound with my own voice. I do get songs stuck in my head, but within this framework of imagining the feelings associated with the sounds. I used to think I could hear these sounds, but closer observation over the years since I realized I have visual Aphantasia has revealed that it’s not so clear-cut. In the same way I thought I was “visualizing” by bringing feelings/knowledge about something to the surface. I have an over-active internal dialog, but this also seems to manifest as some kind of reflection of the feelings associated with the thoughts. I understand the thoughts I’m thinking, but they’re more ephemeral than a voice.
- reportgunner 3y ago
  I have this thing when often I recall a visual representation of something I have somewhere randomly seen looking at it subconsciously after someone is looking for it. Just today a colleague was looking for AA batteries and told me we have none. An image of a 20 pack of green AA batteries laying on a white-grey shelf popped up in my head, I had no idea where or when I saw it but I knew it was real. I checked three shelves of similar color with similar light conditions and there it was, a 20 pack of green AA batteries. It's hard to describe the "image" I "see", it is very focused on the center of the image and the information is progressively "lost" towards the edges of the image, as if there was no edge to it like in real photos or virtual pictures. (kinda like vignette but with information)
  - vidarh 3y ago
    The thing is, I tend to remember very specific details of what things look like even though I can't see them at all. In fact, I pointed out on another thread that I'm very fuzzy about the layout of code and things like syntax highlighting because my memory of code is largely driven by remember "visual" shapes of methods etc., even though I can't actually see them when they're not in front of me. So the recall appears to be largely decoupled from actually seeing the images. Interestingly, my recall appears to be more "abstract" and "cleaned up". E.g. I remember vividly (notice how often these words pop up, and I use them all the time myself, but just remember when I use them I use them in a more abstract sense) an exercise in art class at school where we were given the task of first drawing our shoes without looking under the desk, and then we were told to take a shoe off and put it in front of us and draw it. I can remember clearly how the two drawings looked, but can't see them. The one I drew from memory had clear, firm lines, and was very precise, and the shading and shadows were idealised. It looked like a cartoon-shoe in a way - it was too tidy and clean to be the "real thing". The one I drew with my shoe in front of me had messy lines and shadows that reflected the light of the room at the time, and was far closer to an impressionist drawing. It was marginally closer to the real thing, but it wasn't "better" as art, just a very different style. But the important bit to me is that in retrospect it's a demonstration that my recall of visual memories is there, and I can access them even if I can't see them.
godshatter 3y ago
This stuff is hard to describe. I can't visualize, and I can't hear a monologue in my head. I do have a monologue in my head, to some degree, but I don't actually hear anything. I just know it's going on and what's being said. Same with earworms. I hear songs in my head as if they are vibrating through a door down a long corridor or something. It can be just as annoying and just as hard to get rid of, though. As for visualization, I can "picture" my living room, but when I try it's as if I'm walking through it with no light at all, but I'm familiar enough with it to know where to step because I know where everything is, more or less, and what I would be seeing if someone would turn on the light, i.e the couch is over there and if I'm not careful I'm going to step on the charger I left on the floor. I didn't find out I was an aphant until my 50s. I thought "visualizing a beach" was a figment of speech. I assumed they meant thinking of it, not seeing it. Being alone in my head is like sitting in a quiet room with the lights off and is what I consider "normal". It's lead me to think that everyone has a lot of things happening on different internal "cpu cores" because this lack of stimulus makes it much more clear to me when ideas or solutions just pop into my head from some other part of me.
- causi 3y ago
  Can you do visual hypotheticals? Like if I asked you to, say, imagine an apple with black and white zebra-striped skin, could you tell me if it would look appetizing or not? If asked to imagine a crocodile wearing a wig, could you tell me what hairstyle the wig has?
  - godshatter 3y ago
    I can't really tell in either case. I can't see the apple, but it would depend on just how the zebra stripes look whether I would find it tasty or not. I can think of the idea of it, but not the details. As for the crocodile wearing a wig, that's literally what I think. "A crocodile wearing a wig". No visual. If I had to draw it I'd have to figure that out. The typical "think of a beach" turns into a quick one liner I'd give an artist to work from ("sunset on a beach with someone walking along the water line" or whatever).
vidarh 3y ago
I get songs stuck in my head, but I don't imagine other peoples voices, nor do I "hear" sounds of instruments or similar - if I imagine music I imagine myself humming it. But these things appear to not be directly linked - far more people have no voice in their head than have issues seeing things (about 2% or so see nothing). Similarly I was shocked to realise that a lot of people have no internal monologue or conversation - I have a constant monologue going in my head my ever waking moment other than when I suppress it with meditation. Here's an interesting article that addresses some of these additional aspects [1], and which interestingly fall in the same trap of assuming their experience is universal when they write: > The idea of an internal dialogue – rather than a monologue – will be familiar to anyone who’s ever rehearsed an important conversation, or rehashed an argument, in their mind. But that is not true for me. I rehearse pretty much every conversation I know will happen, but the other side is always silent. I know what I think they'd answer and I practice my side, but there's no voice - mine or others - voicing the rest. For others there is, and for some whole discussions with multiple different voices can happen (sometimes that can indicate a mental health problem, but usually that boils down to whether they're intrusive or beyond your control) [1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-what-your-inner-voice-says-about-you https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-what-your-inner-...

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

by causi 3y ago

Also wondering if aphantasiacs have trouble with imagining voices, sounds, music. Do they ever get songs stuck in their head?

haswell 3y ago

I have a bad visual memory. But when I remember things, instead of seeing things, it’s a general sense of knowing, and at times a sense of feeling. If you asked me what it was like on the beach last weekend, I could tell you it was sandy, there was a vivid sunset, and there were a lot of people. I don’t see these things, I just know them. If you asked me to describe the sunset in more detail, I might recall moments that stood out to me (there was this moment when the sun was creating this mile-long reflection from a building on the other side of the water), but that highlight is separate from the general recollection of the experience, i.e. it doesn’t come from looking back at the sunset itself, it’s an independent thing that stands out in my mind about the experience. I don’t believe I actually “hear” sounds/my inner dialog, but sounds are easier to work with in my head. I’m musically inclined, and good at improvising on the piano. But I think the sounds I “hear” are closer to a reflection of the feelings I feel when hearing those sounds. This is hard to describe, but if I wanted to intentionally imagine a melody, I can almost feel it in the back of my throat, as if my imagination of the sound is the feeling of what it’d be like to make that sound with my own voice. I do get songs stuck in my head, but within this framework of imagining the feelings associated with the sounds. I used to think I could hear these sounds, but closer observation over the years since I realized I have visual Aphantasia has revealed that it’s not so clear-cut. In the same way I thought I was “visualizing” by bringing feelings/knowledge about something to the surface. I have an over-active internal dialog, but this also seems to manifest as some kind of reflection of the feelings associated with the thoughts. I understand the thoughts I’m thinking, but they’re more ephemeral than a voice.

reportgunner 3y ago
I have this thing when often I recall a visual representation of something I have somewhere randomly seen looking at it subconsciously after someone is looking for it. Just today a colleague was looking for AA batteries and told me we have none. An image of a 20 pack of green AA batteries laying on a white-grey shelf popped up in my head, I had no idea where or when I saw it but I knew it was real. I checked three shelves of similar color with similar light conditions and there it was, a 20 pack of green AA batteries. It's hard to describe the "image" I "see", it is very focused on the center of the image and the information is progressively "lost" towards the edges of the image, as if there was no edge to it like in real photos or virtual pictures. (kinda like vignette but with information)
- vidarh 3y ago
  The thing is, I tend to remember very specific details of what things look like even though I can't see them at all. In fact, I pointed out on another thread that I'm very fuzzy about the layout of code and things like syntax highlighting because my memory of code is largely driven by remember "visual" shapes of methods etc., even though I can't actually see them when they're not in front of me. So the recall appears to be largely decoupled from actually seeing the images. Interestingly, my recall appears to be more "abstract" and "cleaned up". E.g. I remember vividly (notice how often these words pop up, and I use them all the time myself, but just remember when I use them I use them in a more abstract sense) an exercise in art class at school where we were given the task of first drawing our shoes without looking under the desk, and then we were told to take a shoe off and put it in front of us and draw it. I can remember clearly how the two drawings looked, but can't see them. The one I drew from memory had clear, firm lines, and was very precise, and the shading and shadows were idealised. It looked like a cartoon-shoe in a way - it was too tidy and clean to be the "real thing". The one I drew with my shoe in front of me had messy lines and shadows that reflected the light of the room at the time, and was far closer to an impressionist drawing. It was marginally closer to the real thing, but it wasn't "better" as art, just a very different style. But the important bit to me is that in retrospect it's a demonstration that my recall of visual memories is there, and I can access them even if I can't see them.

godshatter 3y ago

This stuff is hard to describe. I can't visualize, and I can't hear a monologue in my head. I do have a monologue in my head, to some degree, but I don't actually hear anything. I just know it's going on and what's being said. Same with earworms. I hear songs in my head as if they are vibrating through a door down a long corridor or something. It can be just as annoying and just as hard to get rid of, though. As for visualization, I can "picture" my living room, but when I try it's as if I'm walking through it with no light at all, but I'm familiar enough with it to know where to step because I know where everything is, more or less, and what I would be seeing if someone would turn on the light, i.e the couch is over there and if I'm not careful I'm going to step on the charger I left on the floor. I didn't find out I was an aphant until my 50s. I thought "visualizing a beach" was a figment of speech. I assumed they meant thinking of it, not seeing it. Being alone in my head is like sitting in a quiet room with the lights off and is what I consider "normal". It's lead me to think that everyone has a lot of things happening on different internal "cpu cores" because this lack of stimulus makes it much more clear to me when ideas or solutions just pop into my head from some other part of me.

causi 3y ago
Can you do visual hypotheticals? Like if I asked you to, say, imagine an apple with black and white zebra-striped skin, could you tell me if it would look appetizing or not? If asked to imagine a crocodile wearing a wig, could you tell me what hairstyle the wig has?
- godshatter 3y ago
  I can't really tell in either case. I can't see the apple, but it would depend on just how the zebra stripes look whether I would find it tasty or not. I can think of the idea of it, but not the details. As for the crocodile wearing a wig, that's literally what I think. "A crocodile wearing a wig". No visual. If I had to draw it I'd have to figure that out. The typical "think of a beach" turns into a quick one liner I'd give an artist to work from ("sunset on a beach with someone walking along the water line" or whatever).

vidarh 3y ago

I get songs stuck in my head, but I don't imagine other peoples voices, nor do I "hear" sounds of instruments or similar - if I imagine music I imagine myself humming it. But these things appear to not be directly linked - far more people have no voice in their head than have issues seeing things (about 2% or so see nothing). Similarly I was shocked to realise that a lot of people have no internal monologue or conversation - I have a constant monologue going in my head my ever waking moment other than when I suppress it with meditation. Here's an interesting article that addresses some of these additional aspects [1], and which interestingly fall in the same trap of assuming their experience is universal when they write: > The idea of an internal dialogue – rather than a monologue – will be familiar to anyone who’s ever rehearsed an important conversation, or rehashed an argument, in their mind. But that is not true for me. I rehearse pretty much every conversation I know will happen, but the other side is always silent. I know what I think they'd answer and I practice my side, but there's no voice - mine or others - voicing the rest. For others there is, and for some whole discussions with multiple different voices can happen (sometimes that can indicate a mental health problem, but usually that boils down to whether they're intrusive or beyond your control) [1] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-what-your-inner-voice-says-about-you https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190819-what-your-inner-...