7 ms·

> "Church is fun"... Church barbecues, pizza and movie nights are all part of the mix. On Sundays, "it's loud. ... it's casual. People can wear flip-flops and d

> "Church is fun"... Church barbecues, pizza and movie nights are all part of the mix. On Sundays, "it's loud. ... it's casual. People can wear flip-flops and drink coffee," Bingo! Religion has always been primarily about community. The shared morals and traditions are in service to making a stronger community. Its a book club on steroids. If your church is boring and asocial, nobody will want to attend.

Filligree 3y ago
I could never get past the 'belief' part. If churches didn't require you to believe, maybe they'd have more attendees.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Then there's nothing to tie that community together and it eventually gets deprioritized or simply subsumed into the general culture. Look at "creedless" denominations over time to see how it plays out. There's no specific belief you need to hold to be a quaker for example, and as a result some quaker practices have been absorbed into other protestant churches while quakerism itself is almost dead.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- yardie 3y ago
  I don't think you are required to believe to attend. I've had a few conversations with clergy and I'm pretty sure they aren't sure they believe themselves. What they do have in abundance is faith.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    Churches where I live require you to speak out loud affirmations of your faith, and I don't have any. I suppose I could mumble, or just not speak, but either way I'd feel like a fraud.
- gg82 3y ago
  You can go to church without believing... but believing is the whole point of church.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- lozenge 3y ago
  The Universal Unitarians don't require it. Actually, a lot of churches operate on "don't ask don't tell"
  - Balgair 3y ago
    https://www.uua.org/find https://www.uua.org/find
- OkayPhysicist 3y ago
  That's called a social club. Big classics are the fraternal orders, like the Masons and Oddfellows, but there are plenty of others. I can assure you, they don't get more attendees.
pydry 3y ago
The more ridiculous the beliefs the tighter knit the community, too. It's harder to bond over sensible, obvious things that outsiders would agree with. There's always been a tension between community bonds and reality.
paulryanrogers 3y ago
Community existed long before religion. I'd guess it's more an extention of the brain trying to explain unexpected phenomenon, and grifters learning to exploit that. The community aspects are how the grift is marketed.
- dahfizz 3y ago
  [citation needed]. Religion is as old as civilization, all the way back to Mesopotamia. I think you're right that it stems from a need to explain the unknown, which is why with modern science we have atheism on the rise. But I don't think your pessimism is entirely warranted. A church hosting a free BBQ is not "grifting"
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Fear and agent detection had to exist before belief in a higher power. My guess is intellect had to as well. IMO it's unlikely religion (co)evolved before or with hominins. Regardless I doubt it's possible to find evidence of religion in species going back millions of years. > A church hosting a free BBQ is not "grifting" Having been a deacon at a church hosting state-funded food drives, I can tell you it's never completely free of strings. Even if the funding or food is supposed to be distributed without proselytizing. They are always looking to spread their message, even if the unpleasant aspects are neatly tucked away for later. And the quiet part rarely spoken is they are seeking 10+% of your income, your volunteering time, your attention, and especially your children.
  - za3faran 3y ago
    > I think you're right that it stems from a need to explain the unknown, which is why with modern science we have atheism on the rise. I would pause before making a causal claim. There is a correlation yes, and you see this particularly in demographics whose religions are unable to cope with the false dichotomy that is presented in front of them, so to them the only solution is to turn to atheism or agnosticism and even, ironically perhaps, scientism as we see quite prevalent today. From our Islamic worldview, we don't see any dichotomies between scientific discoveries furthering our understanding of the world, and the existence of God. It's actually the other way around, we see the world as a sign of God, and the more we learn about it, the more we learn about His Magnificence. The Quran encourages us to learn about the world around us. After all, Islam was the main driving force that brought us the Islamic Golden Age.
sandworm101 3y ago
>> The shared morals and traditions are in service to making a stronger community. For a great many it is also about exclusion, a purification of that community. When I lived in the US I attended several community events (BBQs, sports days and such) with friends who were "in" a local church. It was all fun until someone got wind of the new guy with a non-local accent. Then I would be set upon by people asking probing questions to nail down my religious status, questions for which there are never good answers. Once I left early as my outsider status was evidently disruptive (a "leader" was loudly trying to convert me.) I also went to a big Mormon BBQ event which was, unexpectedly, 100% different. They just accepted the presence of an outsider and didn't feel the need to even bring it up. But for some reason they did keep offering me coffee.
1MachineElf 3y ago
My (good!) experience is that churches are very much about community, however, I believe there is an interesting point to consider about them as institutions of control. Moreso in the context of European history, but also perhaps in the context of megachurches as described in this article. Friedrich Nietzche proposed that Christianity instills "slave morality" which redefined "good" as altruistic, patient, meek, humble, etc. and "evil" as greedy, violent, jealous, etc. Prior to Christianity, Nietzche cites that European "human morality" equated "good" with power, ambition, wealth, etc. and "bad" with weakness, apathy, poverty, etc. While it's true that Nietzche is a flawed character, I'd say it's worthwhile to examine how these competing moral codes are present within Christianity. Historically, one may see the Catholic church, or the Church of England, as instilling the "slave morality" while their leaders enjoy the base morality for themselves. Consider the Spanish inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, or perhaps even Manifest Destiny - which moral code was primarily practiced by those who led these, and which moral code was primarily practiced by those who supported them? I believe the same cognitive dissonance is at play with these megachurches. Just something to consider, not critiquing Christianity in theory, just how things have/are playing out. It's also perfectly reasonable as a Christian to critique "human morality" as the original sin which Christian morality attempts to solve.
notacoward 3y ago
The fun is the hook, but the congregants are still fish. David French recently wrote an article about how right-wingers - and particularly evangelicals - are blind to the way their religious and political institutions (with too little separation between them) spread hate and lies. What they see is the bonds of fun and love among their own kind, with churches often the center of that. It's hard to think of fun, likeable people doing bad things, so they just don't. https://archive.is/P1Cf5 https://archive.is/P1Cf5 In that context, the rise of megachurches is a Very Bad Thing. In my experience - being from a family with multiple generations of missionaries and pastors in that tradition - these types of unaffiliated churches often tend toward cults of personality, spreading a message that is at best oblivious to the concerns of anyone outside their extremely homogeneous congregations. True hate from the pulpit is rare, but fear of others and belief in literal devils trying to drive an anti-faith agenda are quite common. People thinking one's own community is special or blessed usually goes hand in hand with an implication that The Other is defective or diabolical. While not harmful in itself, it's a stepping stone to some pretty bad places. It's a common error to think that repressive regimes are unstintingly serious. In fact, the worst elements can never have their way without the support of a broader community, which they often nurture through recreation, religion, etc. "Church is fun" can be a good thing, but it doesn't mean those "fun" churches' effect on the body politic is a good one.

Filligree 3y ago

I could never get past the 'belief' part. If churches didn't require you to believe, maybe they'd have more attendees.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Then there's nothing to tie that community together and it eventually gets deprioritized or simply subsumed into the general culture. Look at "creedless" denominations over time to see how it plays out. There's no specific belief you need to hold to be a quaker for example, and as a result some quaker practices have been absorbed into other protestant churches while quakerism itself is almost dead.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
yardie 3y ago
I don't think you are required to believe to attend. I've had a few conversations with clergy and I'm pretty sure they aren't sure they believe themselves. What they do have in abundance is faith.
- Filligree 3y ago
  Churches where I live require you to speak out loud affirmations of your faith, and I don't have any. I suppose I could mumble, or just not speak, but either way I'd feel like a fraud.
gg82 3y ago
You can go to church without believing... but believing is the whole point of church.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
lozenge 3y ago
The Universal Unitarians don't require it. Actually, a lot of churches operate on "don't ask don't tell"
- Balgair 3y ago
  https://www.uua.org/find https://www.uua.org/find
OkayPhysicist 3y ago
That's called a social club. Big classics are the fraternal orders, like the Masons and Oddfellows, but there are plenty of others. I can assure you, they don't get more attendees.

pydry 3y ago

The more ridiculous the beliefs the tighter knit the community, too. It's harder to bond over sensible, obvious things that outsiders would agree with. There's always been a tension between community bonds and reality.

paulryanrogers 3y ago

Community existed long before religion. I'd guess it's more an extention of the brain trying to explain unexpected phenomenon, and grifters learning to exploit that. The community aspects are how the grift is marketed.

dahfizz 3y ago
[citation needed]. Religion is as old as civilization, all the way back to Mesopotamia. I think you're right that it stems from a need to explain the unknown, which is why with modern science we have atheism on the rise. But I don't think your pessimism is entirely warranted. A church hosting a free BBQ is not "grifting"
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Fear and agent detection had to exist before belief in a higher power. My guess is intellect had to as well. IMO it's unlikely religion (co)evolved before or with hominins. Regardless I doubt it's possible to find evidence of religion in species going back millions of years. > A church hosting a free BBQ is not "grifting" Having been a deacon at a church hosting state-funded food drives, I can tell you it's never completely free of strings. Even if the funding or food is supposed to be distributed without proselytizing. They are always looking to spread their message, even if the unpleasant aspects are neatly tucked away for later. And the quiet part rarely spoken is they are seeking 10+% of your income, your volunteering time, your attention, and especially your children.
- za3faran 3y ago
  > I think you're right that it stems from a need to explain the unknown, which is why with modern science we have atheism on the rise. I would pause before making a causal claim. There is a correlation yes, and you see this particularly in demographics whose religions are unable to cope with the false dichotomy that is presented in front of them, so to them the only solution is to turn to atheism or agnosticism and even, ironically perhaps, scientism as we see quite prevalent today. From our Islamic worldview, we don't see any dichotomies between scientific discoveries furthering our understanding of the world, and the existence of God. It's actually the other way around, we see the world as a sign of God, and the more we learn about it, the more we learn about His Magnificence. The Quran encourages us to learn about the world around us. After all, Islam was the main driving force that brought us the Islamic Golden Age.

sandworm101 3y ago

>> The shared morals and traditions are in service to making a stronger community. For a great many it is also about exclusion, a purification of that community. When I lived in the US I attended several community events (BBQs, sports days and such) with friends who were "in" a local church. It was all fun until someone got wind of the new guy with a non-local accent. Then I would be set upon by people asking probing questions to nail down my religious status, questions for which there are never good answers. Once I left early as my outsider status was evidently disruptive (a "leader" was loudly trying to convert me.) I also went to a big Mormon BBQ event which was, unexpectedly, 100% different. They just accepted the presence of an outsider and didn't feel the need to even bring it up. But for some reason they did keep offering me coffee.

1MachineElf 3y ago

My (good!) experience is that churches are very much about community, however, I believe there is an interesting point to consider about them as institutions of control. Moreso in the context of European history, but also perhaps in the context of megachurches as described in this article. Friedrich Nietzche proposed that Christianity instills "slave morality" which redefined "good" as altruistic, patient, meek, humble, etc. and "evil" as greedy, violent, jealous, etc. Prior to Christianity, Nietzche cites that European "human morality" equated "good" with power, ambition, wealth, etc. and "bad" with weakness, apathy, poverty, etc. While it's true that Nietzche is a flawed character, I'd say it's worthwhile to examine how these competing moral codes are present within Christianity. Historically, one may see the Catholic church, or the Church of England, as instilling the "slave morality" while their leaders enjoy the base morality for themselves. Consider the Spanish inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, or perhaps even Manifest Destiny - which moral code was primarily practiced by those who led these, and which moral code was primarily practiced by those who supported them? I believe the same cognitive dissonance is at play with these megachurches. Just something to consider, not critiquing Christianity in theory, just how things have/are playing out. It's also perfectly reasonable as a Christian to critique "human morality" as the original sin which Christian morality attempts to solve.

notacoward 3y ago

The fun is the hook, but the congregants are still fish. David French recently wrote an article about how right-wingers - and particularly evangelicals - are blind to the way their religious and political institutions (with too little separation between them) spread hate and lies. What they see is the bonds of fun and love among their own kind, with churches often the center of that. It's hard to think of fun, likeable people doing bad things, so they just don't. https://archive.is/P1Cf5 https://archive.is/P1Cf5 In that context, the rise of megachurches is a Very Bad Thing. In my experience - being from a family with multiple generations of missionaries and pastors in that tradition - these types of unaffiliated churches often tend toward cults of personality, spreading a message that is at best oblivious to the concerns of anyone outside their extremely homogeneous congregations. True hate from the pulpit is rare, but fear of others and belief in literal devils trying to drive an anti-faith agenda are quite common. People thinking one's own community is special or blessed usually goes hand in hand with an implication that The Other is defective or diabolical. While not harmful in itself, it's a stepping stone to some pretty bad places. It's a common error to think that repressive regimes are unstintingly serious. In fact, the worst elements can never have their way without the support of a broader community, which they often nurture through recreation, religion, etc. "Church is fun" can be a good thing, but it doesn't mean those "fun" churches' effect on the body politic is a good one.