3 ms·

Legally Austria is part of the European Union and a founding member of the OECD. Its not just "allies with" the West. It is part of the west.

rob74 3y ago
Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...
- eigenket 3y ago
  Austrian neutrality has changed a lot over the years. They're part of the EU's common foreign and security policy, part of which is "Permanent Structured Cooperation" (because the EU, as much as I love it, absolutely sucks at naming stuff). Third countries can participate in PESCO and the US, UK, Canada and Turkey have applied to join in (i.e. its very closely tied with NATO). There are currently Austrian troops in the NATO-led KFOR force in Kosovo and as part of the EU force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. TLDR: yeah they're "neutral" but the meaning of that word changes fairly significantly depending on the context.
thsksbd 3y ago
I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West. Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history. But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances. Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty. The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty. The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.
- eigenket 3y ago
  The Holy Roman Empire has very little do do with what is "the west", even within Europe. Spain, Poland, Portugal the UK were not part of it and only a small part of France was. France is (in my view) clearly significantly part of "the west" than many areas formerly part of the HRE. Malta is also constitutionally required to be neutral, and as a result did not enter the EU's PESCO. Austria takes a rather more "flexible" view of its Neutrality than Malta does, and so joined PESCO. Note that third countries can participate in PESCO, and those which have requested to join are: Canada, Norway, the USA, the UK and Turkey. This is pretty clearly not a neutral organisation. Austria's neutrality may be more baked into law than Switzerland's is, but it is clearly not as significant as Malta's.
  - bitsinthesky 3y ago
    Arguably the Holy Roman Empire has a lot to do with what "the west" is
    - eigenket 3y ago
      Perhaps it depends where you're from. I was born in the UK, and I don't see the HRE as particularly influencing my view of western vs non-western countries. Especially France, Spain, Portugal and the UK seem emphatically Western to me.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

rob74 3y ago

Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...

eigenket 3y ago
Austrian neutrality has changed a lot over the years. They're part of the EU's common foreign and security policy, part of which is "Permanent Structured Cooperation" (because the EU, as much as I love it, absolutely sucks at naming stuff). Third countries can participate in PESCO and the US, UK, Canada and Turkey have applied to join in (i.e. its very closely tied with NATO). There are currently Austrian troops in the NATO-led KFOR force in Kosovo and as part of the EU force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. TLDR: yeah they're "neutral" but the meaning of that word changes fairly significantly depending on the context.

thsksbd 3y ago

I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West. Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history. But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances. Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty. The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty. The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.

eigenket 3y ago
The Holy Roman Empire has very little do do with what is "the west", even within Europe. Spain, Poland, Portugal the UK were not part of it and only a small part of France was. France is (in my view) clearly significantly part of "the west" than many areas formerly part of the HRE. Malta is also constitutionally required to be neutral, and as a result did not enter the EU's PESCO. Austria takes a rather more "flexible" view of its Neutrality than Malta does, and so joined PESCO. Note that third countries can participate in PESCO, and those which have requested to join are: Canada, Norway, the USA, the UK and Turkey. This is pretty clearly not a neutral organisation. Austria's neutrality may be more baked into law than Switzerland's is, but it is clearly not as significant as Malta's.
- bitsinthesky 3y ago
  Arguably the Holy Roman Empire has a lot to do with what "the west" is
  - eigenket 3y ago
    Perhaps it depends where you're from. I was born in the UK, and I don't see the HRE as particularly influencing my view of western vs non-western countries. Especially France, Spain, Portugal and the UK seem emphatically Western to me.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]