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The article pearl clutches w/out stating why Vienna is a spying hub (no, its not the intl. orgs there). Hint - legally Austria is not, in the words of the arti

The article pearl clutches w/out stating why Vienna is a spying hub (no, its not the intl. orgs there). Hint - legally Austria is not, in the words of the article, "allies" with the West.

eigenket 3y ago
Legally Austria is part of the European Union and a founding member of the OECD. Its not just "allies with" the West. It is part of the west.
- rob74 3y ago
  Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...
  - eigenket 3y ago
    Austrian neutrality has changed a lot over the years. They're part of the EU's common foreign and security policy, part of which is "Permanent Structured Cooperation" (because the EU, as much as I love it, absolutely sucks at naming stuff). Third countries can participate in PESCO and the US, UK, Canada and Turkey have applied to join in (i.e. its very closely tied with NATO). There are currently Austrian troops in the NATO-led KFOR force in Kosovo and as part of the EU force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. TLDR: yeah they're "neutral" but the meaning of that word changes fairly significantly depending on the context.
- thsksbd 3y ago
  I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West. Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history. But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances. Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty. The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty. The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.
  - eigenket 3y ago
    The Holy Roman Empire has very little do do with what is "the west", even within Europe. Spain, Poland, Portugal the UK were not part of it and only a small part of France was. France is (in my view) clearly significantly part of "the west" than many areas formerly part of the HRE. Malta is also constitutionally required to be neutral, and as a result did not enter the EU's PESCO. Austria takes a rather more "flexible" view of its Neutrality than Malta does, and so joined PESCO. Note that third countries can participate in PESCO, and those which have requested to join are: Canada, Norway, the USA, the UK and Turkey. This is pretty clearly not a neutral organisation. Austria's neutrality may be more baked into law than Switzerland's is, but it is clearly not as significant as Malta's.
    - bitsinthesky 3y ago
      Arguably the Holy Roman Empire has a lot to do with what "the west" is
      - eigenket 3y ago
        Perhaps it depends where you're from. I was born in the UK, and I don't see the HRE as particularly influencing my view of western vs non-western countries. Especially France, Spain, Portugal and the UK seem emphatically Western to me.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
_fat_santa 3y ago
Geopolitically it makes a ton of sense. Austria is part of the EU while it is not part of NATO. It's basically a buffer state between eastern and western EU.
- watwut 3y ago
  That makes zero sense since Austria is literally surrounded by NATO countries.
masswerk 3y ago
Legally, spying in Austria is only illegal when Austria itself is concerned. (Technically, there is no damage done to the public good in espionage against a third party. As Austria is technically/officially without allies, there are also no intermediate interests to defend, justifying a universal law against this. However, there may be reason to update this with regard to EU membership. Mind that this is also a legacy of when Austria had been a much-needed link between the East and the West, in the Cold War, and even before this. But as it is now, the need for or the worth of such a role is perceived increasingly less.) Regarding "allied", it's complicated: EU membership is sort of an association, Austria is member of P4P, and there were certain grey projects in the past, which involved cooperation (and also circumvented parliamentary oversight), Austria is very probably participating in Skyshield, but technically Austria is not part of any block. However, for Austria, there had never been any doubt that it was aligned to Western values and strategies. It's actually a two-fold problem, e.g., the military intelligence service refuses to report on any cooperations with the NSA to parliament, which is expected to have oversight.

The article pearl clutches w/out stating why Vienna is a spying hub (no, its not the intl. orgs there). Hint - legally Austria is not, in the words of the article, "allies" with the West.

eigenket 3y ago

Legally Austria is part of the European Union and a founding member of the OECD. Its not just "allies with" the West. It is part of the west.

rob74 3y ago
Politically, yes. From a military point of view, it has committed itself to neutrality - it's mostly forgotten that after the end of WW2, Austria (and Vienna) were also divided in occupation zones, similar to Germany (and Berlin) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied-occupied_Austria. This occupation was already ended in 1955, but only at the price of committing to stay neutral "forever". And it looks like they still feel bound by this commitment...
- eigenket 3y ago
  Austrian neutrality has changed a lot over the years. They're part of the EU's common foreign and security policy, part of which is "Permanent Structured Cooperation" (because the EU, as much as I love it, absolutely sucks at naming stuff). Third countries can participate in PESCO and the US, UK, Canada and Turkey have applied to join in (i.e. its very closely tied with NATO). There are currently Austrian troops in the NATO-led KFOR force in Kosovo and as part of the EU force in Bosnia and Herzegovina. TLDR: yeah they're "neutral" but the meaning of that word changes fairly significantly depending on the context.
thsksbd 3y ago
I said allied with the West. Austria, as the heart of the Holy Roman Empire, is very much part of the West. Austria's Westerness has nothing to do with the silly institutions you listed and everything to do with Her history. But the context is spying, armies and war. So let's do NATO next and, generally, military alliances. Austria is constitutionally obliged not to enter into alliances that compromise her neutrality. This constitutional clause was insisted upon by the Soviets (in early the 50s? Late 40s?) for them to agree for the return of Austria's sovereignty. The other three occupying powers agreed and Austria became independent. An Austria that reneges on military neutrality technically reneges on her sovereignty. The FT's article was clearly talking about military alliances therefore was grossly inaccurate when it deemed Austria an "western" ally. Austria is de jure, both according to national and international law, a neutral country. Her neutrality is more caked into law than Switzerland's.
- eigenket 3y ago
  The Holy Roman Empire has very little do do with what is "the west", even within Europe. Spain, Poland, Portugal the UK were not part of it and only a small part of France was. France is (in my view) clearly significantly part of "the west" than many areas formerly part of the HRE. Malta is also constitutionally required to be neutral, and as a result did not enter the EU's PESCO. Austria takes a rather more "flexible" view of its Neutrality than Malta does, and so joined PESCO. Note that third countries can participate in PESCO, and those which have requested to join are: Canada, Norway, the USA, the UK and Turkey. This is pretty clearly not a neutral organisation. Austria's neutrality may be more baked into law than Switzerland's is, but it is clearly not as significant as Malta's.
  - bitsinthesky 3y ago
    Arguably the Holy Roman Empire has a lot to do with what "the west" is
    - eigenket 3y ago
      Perhaps it depends where you're from. I was born in the UK, and I don't see the HRE as particularly influencing my view of western vs non-western countries. Especially France, Spain, Portugal and the UK seem emphatically Western to me.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

_fat_santa 3y ago

Geopolitically it makes a ton of sense. Austria is part of the EU while it is not part of NATO. It's basically a buffer state between eastern and western EU.

watwut 3y ago
That makes zero sense since Austria is literally surrounded by NATO countries.

masswerk 3y ago

Legally, spying in Austria is only illegal when Austria itself is concerned. (Technically, there is no damage done to the public good in espionage against a third party. As Austria is technically/officially without allies, there are also no intermediate interests to defend, justifying a universal law against this. However, there may be reason to update this with regard to EU membership. Mind that this is also a legacy of when Austria had been a much-needed link between the East and the West, in the Cold War, and even before this. But as it is now, the need for or the worth of such a role is perceived increasingly less.) Regarding "allied", it's complicated: EU membership is sort of an association, Austria is member of P4P, and there were certain grey projects in the past, which involved cooperation (and also circumvented parliamentary oversight), Austria is very probably participating in Skyshield, but technically Austria is not part of any block. However, for Austria, there had never been any doubt that it was aligned to Western values and strategies. It's actually a two-fold problem, e.g., the military intelligence service refuses to report on any cooperations with the NSA to parliament, which is expected to have oversight.