3 ms·

Sometimes people use magical thinking to help them restore a sense of control. I’m not so sure that these kinds of thought processes are critical to understand

Sometimes people use magical thinking to help them restore a sense of control. I’m not so sure that these kinds of thought processes are critical to understanding reality though.

keepamovin 3y ago
That's interesting! Tell me more about that. I guess from that point of view, it wouldn't sound like it would help understanding reality. But I think the ability to make connections between seemingly unrelated things, often across a chasm of unknown, is critical to dealing with the unknown. And at the frontier of science, it's all unknown.
- Quinzel 3y ago
  The reason I’m not so sure that these kinds of thought processes are critical to understanding reality is because they are also the kind of thoughts that people with thought disorders have.
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    TLDR; So you think we should disregard some science theories because crazy people might also think them? Maybe they know something we don’t! Also, isn’t sense of control something that normal people are trying to get all the time? :)
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    Yes, I thought that's where you were going with this! I'm also interested in what you mean by a "sense of control" can you tell me more about that? :) I need to cook now so maybe I'll come back later, if you'll think about it? :)
  - keepamovin 3y ago
    I’m back! :) Scientists are often called crazy by their peers, then turn out to be correct. I think it’s important to remember that ideas have validity independent of the people who hold them. It’s understandable to be cautious of new theories that are similar to ideas held by people with mental illness (you may for instance fear contagion by “wrong” ideas), but becoming mentally ill by engaging with various theories is unlikely, and more likely to be the result of underlying causes unrelated to those ideas! (Related: I have a theory that some people who are thought to be mentally ill, are in fact misdiagnosed with mental illness simply because they have access to psi abilities without a framework for understanding, developing or controlling them! And my hope is that the burgeoning psychedelic therapy will allow more people to unlock capacity for engaging with these abilities in a healthy and sustainable way) While it’s true there may be correlation between certain ideas and certain types of mental illness, it doesn’t make those ideas false or not worth considering. It’s important to consider ideas based on their merits, explanatory power and connection with evidence, rather than on who holds them. And the ability to consider new ideas that mark a radical departure from commonly accepted ones is a hallmark of science and discovery. To be able to invoke, create, engage with and “try on” new ideas and thought processes, including to make connections across gaps in knowledge, is critical to understanding reality. The relationship between new ideas, socially accepted theories, and notions of mental illness is fairly complex and multifaceted, and while it’s completely understandable to be cautious of ideas held by people with thought disorders, it’s key to note that you’re unlikely to get sick simply by considering them. To conclude, it’s important to observe that embracing new explanations of the unknown is not for everybody, but is critical to understanding reality, and that while these ideas can be held by many people, including those with mental illness, that does not make them less true or relevant.
keepamovin 3y ago
Magical thinking to retain or regain a sense of control it’s like superstition, right? So people adopting some religious practice or ritual because they feel that it’s going to please the gods who control the world and bring them something good or stop something bad? Yeah, I understand that. That’s probably what you meant. I guess what I was thinking more was say specific to this context, say someone thinking “all the ideas I have thoughts I have, the feelings I have are not mine they come from someone else” you know someone else’s consciousness. I suppose that could be a form of magical thinking too. that’s where I was going with that a, little bit riffing on you, but for me that’s more of—if it’s used pathologically—a way of abdicating control, rather than gaining it. So, trying to blame outside sources and try not take responsibility for whatever is going wrong with you because you can always say it’s something else’s fault outside of yourself. So for me, that’s more of a way to not be in control, for people to refuse to take control. But I get how that sort of fake payoff can give people a kind of reassurance which could feel like control because they’ve sort of decided to take their hands off the the reins so to speak and surrender to this Inevitable outside influences, as they see it. But it’s interesting how much that seemingly pathological reaction has overlap with things that are very much encouraged and in fact, sacred to various spiritual traditions, you know the idea of surrender. I’m sure there’s nuances there that we’re not covering here but it’s interesting to think about. However, another aspect I think it’s noteworthy is you could think that by coming up with theories to explain the unknown such as the one you’re replying to here (and I’m riffing off you saying it’s yeah it seems like magical thinking to some extent), is this idea that simply by trying to explain something we don’t understand or something bad that’s happening or even something good that’s happening, just simply by trying to explain that—by coming up with a theory— maybe that is retaining or regaining a sense of control. But I don’t think that’s a quest That’s unique to pathological use or people with mental illness. I think that the idea of acquiring control is a very natural and human and ubiquitous pursuit that people are constantly doing ( or trying too!) so I suppose it comes down to that subjective flaw in the diagnosis of mental illness, where it really comes down to what we say reality is versus what you say it is. So if we think your theories are not good theories because they don’t align with or support ours then maybe we make the mistake of calling you mentally ill when in fact, perhaps you’re the one who’s more in touch with reality than we are. so that’s this kind of critical subjective flaw I think that’s problematic in the way society tries to approach mental illness.

Sometimes people use magical thinking to help them restore a sense of control. I’m not so sure that these kinds of thought processes are critical to understanding reality though.

keepamovin 3y ago

That's interesting! Tell me more about that. I guess from that point of view, it wouldn't sound like it would help understanding reality. But I think the ability to make connections between seemingly unrelated things, often across a chasm of unknown, is critical to dealing with the unknown. And at the frontier of science, it's all unknown.

Quinzel 3y ago
The reason I’m not so sure that these kinds of thought processes are critical to understanding reality is because they are also the kind of thoughts that people with thought disorders have.
- keepamovin 3y ago
  TLDR; So you think we should disregard some science theories because crazy people might also think them? Maybe they know something we don’t! Also, isn’t sense of control something that normal people are trying to get all the time? :)
- keepamovin 3y ago
  Yes, I thought that's where you were going with this! I'm also interested in what you mean by a "sense of control" can you tell me more about that? :) I need to cook now so maybe I'll come back later, if you'll think about it? :)
- keepamovin 3y ago
  I’m back! :) Scientists are often called crazy by their peers, then turn out to be correct. I think it’s important to remember that ideas have validity independent of the people who hold them. It’s understandable to be cautious of new theories that are similar to ideas held by people with mental illness (you may for instance fear contagion by “wrong” ideas), but becoming mentally ill by engaging with various theories is unlikely, and more likely to be the result of underlying causes unrelated to those ideas! (Related: I have a theory that some people who are thought to be mentally ill, are in fact misdiagnosed with mental illness simply because they have access to psi abilities without a framework for understanding, developing or controlling them! And my hope is that the burgeoning psychedelic therapy will allow more people to unlock capacity for engaging with these abilities in a healthy and sustainable way) While it’s true there may be correlation between certain ideas and certain types of mental illness, it doesn’t make those ideas false or not worth considering. It’s important to consider ideas based on their merits, explanatory power and connection with evidence, rather than on who holds them. And the ability to consider new ideas that mark a radical departure from commonly accepted ones is a hallmark of science and discovery. To be able to invoke, create, engage with and “try on” new ideas and thought processes, including to make connections across gaps in knowledge, is critical to understanding reality. The relationship between new ideas, socially accepted theories, and notions of mental illness is fairly complex and multifaceted, and while it’s completely understandable to be cautious of ideas held by people with thought disorders, it’s key to note that you’re unlikely to get sick simply by considering them. To conclude, it’s important to observe that embracing new explanations of the unknown is not for everybody, but is critical to understanding reality, and that while these ideas can be held by many people, including those with mental illness, that does not make them less true or relevant.

keepamovin 3y ago

Magical thinking to retain or regain a sense of control it’s like superstition, right? So people adopting some religious practice or ritual because they feel that it’s going to please the gods who control the world and bring them something good or stop something bad? Yeah, I understand that. That’s probably what you meant. I guess what I was thinking more was say specific to this context, say someone thinking “all the ideas I have thoughts I have, the feelings I have are not mine they come from someone else” you know someone else’s consciousness. I suppose that could be a form of magical thinking too. that’s where I was going with that a, little bit riffing on you, but for me that’s more of—if it’s used pathologically—a way of abdicating control, rather than gaining it. So, trying to blame outside sources and try not take responsibility for whatever is going wrong with you because you can always say it’s something else’s fault outside of yourself. So for me, that’s more of a way to not be in control, for people to refuse to take control. But I get how that sort of fake payoff can give people a kind of reassurance which could feel like control because they’ve sort of decided to take their hands off the the reins so to speak and surrender to this Inevitable outside influences, as they see it. But it’s interesting how much that seemingly pathological reaction has overlap with things that are very much encouraged and in fact, sacred to various spiritual traditions, you know the idea of surrender. I’m sure there’s nuances there that we’re not covering here but it’s interesting to think about. However, another aspect I think it’s noteworthy is you could think that by coming up with theories to explain the unknown such as the one you’re replying to here (and I’m riffing off you saying it’s yeah it seems like magical thinking to some extent), is this idea that simply by trying to explain something we don’t understand or something bad that’s happening or even something good that’s happening, just simply by trying to explain that—by coming up with a theory— maybe that is retaining or regaining a sense of control. But I don’t think that’s a quest That’s unique to pathological use or people with mental illness. I think that the idea of acquiring control is a very natural and human and ubiquitous pursuit that people are constantly doing ( or trying too!) so I suppose it comes down to that subjective flaw in the diagnosis of mental illness, where it really comes down to what we say reality is versus what you say it is. So if we think your theories are not good theories because they don’t align with or support ours then maybe we make the mistake of calling you mentally ill when in fact, perhaps you’re the one who’s more in touch with reality than we are. so that’s this kind of critical subjective flaw I think that’s problematic in the way society tries to approach mental illness.