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> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that

by jjav 3y ago

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

benoliver999 3y ago
I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.
- bicx 3y ago
  My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Heh. I just shipped my S3 to vanmoof 2 weeks ago and it was just repaired this week for what sounds like the same battery issue. I'm... not sure if I'll get it back either. The website is telling me there's a charge for the shipping, but no way to pay it.
    - bicx 3y ago
      It’s a shame. Basically it’s e-waste without a battery due to the e-shifter. Can’t even use it as a normal bike.
- jskrablin 3y ago
  You should be able to get years of support for established brands. They are all using similar/identical components (Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang mid drive motors, similar battery packs, etc). There's also aftermarket support/custmizations available for them. Going with a small/exotic brand will always carry a risk of brand disappearing, no aftermarket options, hard to get spare parts, etc... And e-bike business is especially competitive these days so I wouldn't bet on some random hipster brand having any chance to survive in the battle against established brands.
  - benoliver999 3y ago
    Yeah I look at e.g. Bosch and it looks like a standardised size and fit. Bit ugly but removable and replaceable.
seu 3y ago
> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? That's the softwarization of everything, with its in-built early obsolesce: they clearly expect you to start replacing your bike as frequently as you replace your phone, irrelevant of how long the hardware itself is still functional.
- andromeduck 3y ago
  The limiting factor is theft. You're paying a premium theft resistance.
RajT88 3y ago
A buddy of mine is a hardcore rider. He goes through a $5k bike every 5 years or so. Could he refurb the titanium frames for newer parts? Maybe. At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit.
- wrboyce 3y ago
  Right, but this is a commuter e-bike.
- Foivos 3y ago
  What do you mean "go through"? What does a bike have that gets consumed to the point that you have to replace the whole thing?
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    Nothing gets consumed, he just gets bored with his 5 year old bike and wants something that has all the latest new tech. He probably got a new 12-speed bike in the last year just because it's 1 more speed than the older 11-speed bikes from 5 years ago, for instance.
- prmoustache 3y ago
  Your friend just want a new bike every few years, he doesn't go through it. I have been in that place. That doesn't mean older stuff becomes unrideable and unfixable. You can find parts for nearly any kind of old/obsolete bike technology ever made in volume, even tires for odd wheel sizes that have been mostly abandonned can still be found.
- cr1895 3y ago
  >At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit. Sure, but that's utterly irrelevant to daily commuter / city bikes, which Van Moof are.
blackbeans 3y ago
While what you are saying is true and the market is moving towards long term solutions because of environmental reasons, at the moment the lifespan of electric components in bikes is usually set at 5 years with 2 years of warranty for the consumer. Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30. If you buy an ebike, you must be prepared for maintenance and replacement of parts. That's the state of the market right now. I agree that making an app mandatory for a bike is a bad idea, and I would never buy such a solution. However this is an urban city design bike, aimed at a specific group of customers who do value these kind of innovations.
- lm28469 3y ago
  > Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30. Absolute bullshit, especially for a city bike. Stress cycle is an issue but city bikes are over engineered and don't see a lot of stress compared to every other type of bikes. I've used alu bikes over 30 years old daily and I had no issues whatsoever, that's how I went to school everyday for 3 years, and that was a race bike that actually had been use for racing in the past Online posts make it sound like alu bikes self destruct at 5 years and a day...
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    Old fashioned steel bike lovers live in an alternate reality where bikes not made of steel are all experiencing catastrophic frame failures left and right.
  - blackbeans 3y ago
    My experience as long term employee of a big bicycle manufacturer is different. Yes, aluminium can survive a long time. But in general steel has a better chance to survive. The category of city bikes are low cost bikes, and the frames are as well. They are not so over engineered as you think as it is a very competitive market. The first generation VanMoof frames for instance, were prone to breaking. While it is possible for a aluminium frame to reach 30 years lifespan, in practice the lifespan is shorter. This is because steel is more forgiving, it can handle dents and scratches where aluminium is more prone to breaking. Also the frames are usually hand welded and this can too be a weak point as it is hard to perfectly weld aluminum. It doesn't mean you can't ride a 30 year old aluminium bike or that it will auto destruct. It does mean that the bike is unlikely to reach that age.
lm28469 3y ago
> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? People under 25 don't know better, they genuenly haven't experienced anything else than Chinese made self destructing Bluetooth enabled plastic gadgets
vultour 3y ago
This is why I struggle updating my old PHP apps. It sure would be nice to refactor it into something newer, but I really don't want to run it on some VC-funded wet dream that disappears one day with 3 hours of notice.
madeofpalk 3y ago
Honest answer - I don't expect the e-bike to last past 10 years. I expect(ed) that by the time the app was unavailable I would have moved on to a different e-bike for whatever reason. I don't want a non-e-bike. I want a bike with pedal assist.

by jjav 3y ago

benoliver999 3y ago

I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.

bicx 3y ago
My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Heh. I just shipped my S3 to vanmoof 2 weeks ago and it was just repaired this week for what sounds like the same battery issue. I'm... not sure if I'll get it back either. The website is telling me there's a charge for the shipping, but no way to pay it.
  - bicx 3y ago
    It’s a shame. Basically it’s e-waste without a battery due to the e-shifter. Can’t even use it as a normal bike.
jskrablin 3y ago
You should be able to get years of support for established brands. They are all using similar/identical components (Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang mid drive motors, similar battery packs, etc). There's also aftermarket support/custmizations available for them. Going with a small/exotic brand will always carry a risk of brand disappearing, no aftermarket options, hard to get spare parts, etc... And e-bike business is especially competitive these days so I wouldn't bet on some random hipster brand having any chance to survive in the battle against established brands.
- benoliver999 3y ago
  Yeah I look at e.g. Bosch and it looks like a standardised size and fit. Bit ugly but removable and replaceable.

seu 3y ago

> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? That's the softwarization of everything, with its in-built early obsolesce: they clearly expect you to start replacing your bike as frequently as you replace your phone, irrelevant of how long the hardware itself is still functional.

andromeduck 3y ago
The limiting factor is theft. You're paying a premium theft resistance.

RajT88 3y ago

A buddy of mine is a hardcore rider. He goes through a $5k bike every 5 years or so. Could he refurb the titanium frames for newer parts? Maybe. At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit.

wrboyce 3y ago
Right, but this is a commuter e-bike.
Foivos 3y ago
What do you mean "go through"? What does a bike have that gets consumed to the point that you have to replace the whole thing?
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Nothing gets consumed, he just gets bored with his 5 year old bike and wants something that has all the latest new tech. He probably got a new 12-speed bike in the last year just because it's 1 more speed than the older 11-speed bikes from 5 years ago, for instance.
prmoustache 3y ago
Your friend just want a new bike every few years, he doesn't go through it. I have been in that place. That doesn't mean older stuff becomes unrideable and unfixable. You can find parts for nearly any kind of old/obsolete bike technology ever made in volume, even tires for odd wheel sizes that have been mostly abandonned can still be found.
cr1895 3y ago
>At some point racing tech moves on and you need a newer frame for the latest and greatest stuff to fit. Sure, but that's utterly irrelevant to daily commuter / city bikes, which Van Moof are.

blackbeans 3y ago

While what you are saying is true and the market is moving towards long term solutions because of environmental reasons, at the moment the lifespan of electric components in bikes is usually set at 5 years with 2 years of warranty for the consumer. Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30. If you buy an ebike, you must be prepared for maintenance and replacement of parts. That's the state of the market right now. I agree that making an app mandatory for a bike is a bad idea, and I would never buy such a solution. However this is an urban city design bike, aimed at a specific group of customers who do value these kind of innovations.

lm28469 3y ago
> Bikes are made of aluminium these days instead of steel, which gives them a lifespan of about 10 years, certainly not 30. Absolute bullshit, especially for a city bike. Stress cycle is an issue but city bikes are over engineered and don't see a lot of stress compared to every other type of bikes. I've used alu bikes over 30 years old daily and I had no issues whatsoever, that's how I went to school everyday for 3 years, and that was a race bike that actually had been use for racing in the past Online posts make it sound like alu bikes self destruct at 5 years and a day...
- midoridensha 3y ago
  Old fashioned steel bike lovers live in an alternate reality where bikes not made of steel are all experiencing catastrophic frame failures left and right.
- blackbeans 3y ago
  My experience as long term employee of a big bicycle manufacturer is different. Yes, aluminium can survive a long time. But in general steel has a better chance to survive. The category of city bikes are low cost bikes, and the frames are as well. They are not so over engineered as you think as it is a very competitive market. The first generation VanMoof frames for instance, were prone to breaking. While it is possible for a aluminium frame to reach 30 years lifespan, in practice the lifespan is shorter. This is because steel is more forgiving, it can handle dents and scratches where aluminium is more prone to breaking. Also the frames are usually hand welded and this can too be a weak point as it is hard to perfectly weld aluminum. It doesn't mean you can't ride a 30 year old aluminium bike or that it will auto destruct. It does mean that the bike is unlikely to reach that age.

lm28469 3y ago

> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? People under 25 don't know better, they genuenly haven't experienced anything else than Chinese made self destructing Bluetooth enabled plastic gadgets

vultour 3y ago

This is why I struggle updating my old PHP apps. It sure would be nice to refactor it into something newer, but I really don't want to run it on some VC-funded wet dream that disappears one day with 3 hours of notice.

madeofpalk 3y ago

Honest answer - I don't expect the e-bike to last past 10 years. I expect(ed) that by the time the app was unavailable I would have moved on to a different e-bike for whatever reason. I don't want a non-e-bike. I want a bike with pedal assist.