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Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

gnopgnip 3y ago
If it’s stolen they will either recover it or replace it. And everyone knows this, so no one will buy a stolen one and they are less likely to be stolen.
- fh973 3y ago
  If they're still in business.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > And everyone knows this You mean they know the vendor is an infinite supplier of free bikes to steal, deSaaSify, and sell to a different market? Either way, the message doesn't spread itself; I wouldn't overestimate how much small-scale semi-pro thiefs know or care about bullshit tech startups.
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Vanmoof's whole thing is recovering the bikes
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Was, didn't work out as planned, did it?
      - Bootvis 3y ago
        Yes, but not because of the anti theft features. The anti theft feature seems to have been a good idea.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      In a fight between a bullshit tech startup whose entire business model shows they're actively hostile to both customers and society at large, and minimally sophisticated thieves with access to a dedicated defeat toolkit that is surely already available to buy somewhere[0], I expect the startup to surrender first. EDIT: the only real advantage VanMoof could have here is if they're selling shitty bikes and overpricing customers for the brand name. That would indeed deter most thieves successfully - by making stealing those bikes not worth the effort. Well, until the metal prices spike or something, and it's profitable to steal them and sell as raw material... -- [0] - See e.g. cheaply available conversion kits for Bird scooters; IIRC they were being sold for something like $30. Though those had a plausibly legal use case: converting decommissioned or seized scooters. There were plenty of the latter, as following the example set by Uber, Bird also pretended law and society don't exist.
- j-a-a-p 3y ago
  Ah, now i am beginning to understand why they needed 200 million to develop a bike...
- onion2k 3y ago
  Not any more, so owners will probably need to be a bit more careful now.
barefeg 3y ago
Maybe a clarification: it doesn’t need both the app and internet connection to unlock. There are 2 ways to unlock and one of them uses the app and Bluetooth (no internet). In terms of the appeals, I see it the other way around. The app is just the means to get the feature set to work; people don’t buy the bike because it has an app. There might be other implementations of the features that don’t require an app.
jjav 3y ago
> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?
- benoliver999 3y ago
  I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.
  - bicx 3y ago
    My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.
    - madeofpalk 3y ago
      Heh. I just shipped my S3 to vanmoof 2 weeks ago and it was just repaired this week for what sounds like the same battery issue. I'm... not sure if I'll get it back either. The website is telling me there's a charge for the shipping, but no way to pay it.
      - bicx 3y ago
        It’s a shame. Basically it’s e-waste without a battery due to the e-shifter. Can’t even use it as a normal bike.
  - jskrablin 3y ago
    You should be able to get years of support for established brands. They are all using similar/identical components (Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang mid drive motors, similar battery packs, etc). There's also aftermarket support/custmizations available for them. Going with a small/exotic brand will always carry a risk of brand disappearing, no aftermarket options, hard to get spare parts, etc... And e-bike business is especially competitive these days so I wouldn't bet on some random hipster brand having any chance to survive in the battle against established brands.
Daz1 3y ago
...You have less to worry about with regard to theft? I don't understand your question.
walthamstow 3y ago
I have an older model, the ES2, which can be unlocked by tapping a key code into the button in the handlebars. I don't ever use the app for anything, it's not even downloaded to my current phone.
Rebelgecko 3y ago
You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it. I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.
- herrherrmann 3y ago
  Similar appeal for me! I have a neighbor with a VanMoof and they are one of the few bikes that can just be parked in a corner with a kickstand and doesn’t need to be locked to a metal bar or other static thing. And this VanMoof has been around in our backyard for quite a few years, so I suppose the “don’t steal me, I’ll be tracked” tactic works. That being said, once I tried riding a (older non-electric) VanMoof, I was shocked how terrible it felt to ride – So, I never considered getting one in the end.
- tjoff 3y ago
  Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away. Either way you most likely won't recover it.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away. The point of Van Moof was to associate their brand with "don't steal our bikes because they will lead the police to your dump location".
  - Rebelgecko 3y ago
    Most of the bike thieves around me are opportunists who live within a mile or two of the bikes they steal. Afterwards, they often just leave the bikes out on the street in semi-organized chop shops. Even for bikes without GPS, people have decent luck just cruising around freeway underpasses until the see their bike. Regardless, part of the allure was the Van Moof has (had?) a program where if they couldn't recover your bike you'd get a new one for just $100
tiku 3y ago
The appeal was that the bike signalled that you are not just a normal bike rider. You are one of the few lucky enough to be able to afford one.
jillesvangurp 3y ago
The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Which limits the value of the bike for them because it makes it easy to track them down. It's part of the theft protection. Which, if you've ever had your bike stolen is a big selling point for these bikes. Theft is a reason why I've never bothered with premium bikes. Because you can't take them anywhere and expect them to not get stolen. Van Moof changed that. They can be stolen of course but it's a lot of hassle and bike thieves learned pretty quickly that there's very little point in doing so as they'll go through a lot of trouble to track down the bike. Which means it's risky. Van Moof actually had an insurance policy that you could buy that included a guarantee to either track down your stolen bike or replace it. The so-called bike hunters would attempt to track down the bike. And stealing one involves dealing with a very loud and obnoxious alarm that is motion triggered that can only be disabled by unlocking the bike. Those were all good things. What's not good is all the proprietary components, the poor quality of those, and the over dependence on the Van Moof servicing. That's what's killing the company. Basically classic VC funded company problem: great idea and product but hopeless execution resulting in a company that has a lot of cost but no profits making that problem worse through rapid growth and inflated investor expectations. The debt bubble burst last year, they are running out of cash now, and game over pretty much. I actually have a lease bike from a company called Swapfiets here in Berlin. Very nice deal. I pay them per month and the bike is basically ignored by bike thieves and vandals. There are hundreds of thousands of these bikes across Europe. Each bringing in revenue through a subscription. Genius idea. The bike is decent but nothing special. What they sell is peace of mind. I get to ride a decent bike and not worry about it getting stolen. Very low tech solution; the bikes are just very recognizable which means selling them is not a thing for thieves. If it gets stolen and I can show the key, my risk is 60 euros. I've had one for three years now and I park it all over town in all the hot spots where bikes get stolen, vandalized, etc. without a second thought. Not a single incident.
- ornornor 3y ago
  > The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Couldn’t you achieve that with a hardware key though? You don’t really need a server and still have a hardware Bluetooth key that is secure with the bike being useless without it? Then you don’t depend on a company staying afloat and granting you the privilege to keep using your bicycle as they see fit/VC greed dictates.
madeofpalk 3y ago
It doesn't need an internet connection & app to unlock. It needs an internet connection to initially get the bike's encryption keys. After that the app can communicate with the bike over bluetooth without internet access. And then, you actually don't even need the app to unlock the bike. You can unlock the rear hub by entering a passcode physically on the bike without the app. Occasionally the app/bluetooth conked out and I had to unlock using the code.

If it’s stolen they will either recover it or replace it. And everyone knows this, so no one will buy a stolen one and they are less likely to be stolen.

fh973 3y ago
If they're still in business.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
> And everyone knows this You mean they know the vendor is an infinite supplier of free bikes to steal, deSaaSify, and sell to a different market? Either way, the message doesn't spread itself; I wouldn't overestimate how much small-scale semi-pro thiefs know or care about bullshit tech startups.
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Vanmoof's whole thing is recovering the bikes
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Was, didn't work out as planned, did it?
    - Bootvis 3y ago
      Yes, but not because of the anti theft features. The anti theft feature seems to have been a good idea.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    In a fight between a bullshit tech startup whose entire business model shows they're actively hostile to both customers and society at large, and minimally sophisticated thieves with access to a dedicated defeat toolkit that is surely already available to buy somewhere[0], I expect the startup to surrender first. EDIT: the only real advantage VanMoof could have here is if they're selling shitty bikes and overpricing customers for the brand name. That would indeed deter most thieves successfully - by making stealing those bikes not worth the effort. Well, until the metal prices spike or something, and it's profitable to steal them and sell as raw material... -- [0] - See e.g. cheaply available conversion kits for Bird scooters; IIRC they were being sold for something like $30. Though those had a plausibly legal use case: converting decommissioned or seized scooters. There were plenty of the latter, as following the example set by Uber, Bird also pretended law and society don't exist.
j-a-a-p 3y ago
Ah, now i am beginning to understand why they needed 200 million to develop a bike...
onion2k 3y ago
Not any more, so owners will probably need to be a bit more careful now.

barefeg 3y ago

Maybe a clarification: it doesn’t need both the app and internet connection to unlock. There are 2 ways to unlock and one of them uses the app and Bluetooth (no internet). In terms of the appeals, I see it the other way around. The app is just the means to get the feature set to work; people don’t buy the bike because it has an app. There might be other implementations of the features that don’t require an app.

jjav 3y ago

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

benoliver999 3y ago
I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.
- bicx 3y ago
  My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    Heh. I just shipped my S3 to vanmoof 2 weeks ago and it was just repaired this week for what sounds like the same battery issue. I'm... not sure if I'll get it back either. The website is telling me there's a charge for the shipping, but no way to pay it.
    - bicx 3y ago
      It’s a shame. Basically it’s e-waste without a battery due to the e-shifter. Can’t even use it as a normal bike.
- jskrablin 3y ago
  You should be able to get years of support for established brands. They are all using similar/identical components (Shimano, Yamaha, Bafang mid drive motors, similar battery packs, etc). There's also aftermarket support/custmizations available for them. Going with a small/exotic brand will always carry a risk of brand disappearing, no aftermarket options, hard to get spare parts, etc... And e-bike business is especially competitive these days so I wouldn't bet on some random hipster brand having any chance to survive in the battle against established brands.

Daz1 3y ago

...You have less to worry about with regard to theft? I don't understand your question.

walthamstow 3y ago

I have an older model, the ES2, which can be unlocked by tapping a key code into the button in the handlebars. I don't ever use the app for anything, it's not even downloaded to my current phone.

Rebelgecko 3y ago

You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it. I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.

herrherrmann 3y ago
Similar appeal for me! I have a neighbor with a VanMoof and they are one of the few bikes that can just be parked in a corner with a kickstand and doesn’t need to be locked to a metal bar or other static thing. And this VanMoof has been around in our backyard for quite a few years, so I suppose the “don’t steal me, I’ll be tracked” tactic works. That being said, once I tried riding a (older non-electric) VanMoof, I was shocked how terrible it felt to ride – So, I never considered getting one in the end.
tjoff 3y ago
Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away. Either way you most likely won't recover it.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > Thought they just throwed them at the back of a van rather than biked away. The point of Van Moof was to associate their brand with "don't steal our bikes because they will lead the police to your dump location".
- Rebelgecko 3y ago
  Most of the bike thieves around me are opportunists who live within a mile or two of the bikes they steal. Afterwards, they often just leave the bikes out on the street in semi-organized chop shops. Even for bikes without GPS, people have decent luck just cruising around freeway underpasses until the see their bike. Regardless, part of the allure was the Van Moof has (had?) a program where if they couldn't recover your bike you'd get a new one for just $100

tiku 3y ago

The appeal was that the bike signalled that you are not just a normal bike rider. You are one of the few lucky enough to be able to afford one.

jillesvangurp 3y ago

The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Which limits the value of the bike for them because it makes it easy to track them down. It's part of the theft protection. Which, if you've ever had your bike stolen is a big selling point for these bikes. Theft is a reason why I've never bothered with premium bikes. Because you can't take them anywhere and expect them to not get stolen. Van Moof changed that. They can be stolen of course but it's a lot of hassle and bike thieves learned pretty quickly that there's very little point in doing so as they'll go through a lot of trouble to track down the bike. Which means it's risky. Van Moof actually had an insurance policy that you could buy that included a guarantee to either track down your stolen bike or replace it. The so-called bike hunters would attempt to track down the bike. And stealing one involves dealing with a very loud and obnoxious alarm that is motion triggered that can only be disabled by unlocking the bike. Those were all good things. What's not good is all the proprietary components, the poor quality of those, and the over dependence on the Van Moof servicing. That's what's killing the company. Basically classic VC funded company problem: great idea and product but hopeless execution resulting in a company that has a lot of cost but no profits making that problem worse through rapid growth and inflated investor expectations. The debt bubble burst last year, they are running out of cash now, and game over pretty much. I actually have a lease bike from a company called Swapfiets here in Berlin. Very nice deal. I pay them per month and the bike is basically ignored by bike thieves and vandals. There are hundreds of thousands of these bikes across Europe. Each bringing in revenue through a subscription. Genius idea. The bike is decent but nothing special. What they sell is peace of mind. I get to ride a decent bike and not worry about it getting stolen. Very low tech solution; the bikes are just very recognizable which means selling them is not a thing for thieves. If it gets stolen and I can show the key, my risk is 60 euros. I've had one for three years now and I park it all over town in all the hot spots where bikes get stolen, vandalized, etc. without a second thought. Not a single incident.

ornornor 3y ago
> The appeal is that thieves need to do the same thing. Couldn’t you achieve that with a hardware key though? You don’t really need a server and still have a hardware Bluetooth key that is secure with the bike being useless without it? Then you don’t depend on a company staying afloat and granting you the privilege to keep using your bicycle as they see fit/VC greed dictates.

madeofpalk 3y ago

It doesn't need an internet connection & app to unlock. It needs an internet connection to initially get the bike's encryption keys. After that the app can communicate with the bike over bluetooth without internet access. And then, you actually don't even need the app to unlock the bike. You can unlock the rear hub by entering a passcode physically on the bike without the app. Occasionally the app/bluetooth conked out and I had to unlock using the code.