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> We as a population need to be exposed to misinformation to build up immunity against it. We tried this in the 1930s in Europe and it didn’t seem to go very w

> We as a population need to be exposed to misinformation to build up immunity against it. We tried this in the 1930s in Europe and it didn’t seem to go very well. See also it’s lasting legacy in the current Italian prime minister, Marine Le Pen’s popularity in France, and AfD’s electoral successes in Germany.

xcdzvyn 3y ago
Am I correct in my understanding that your comment is equating Nazi Germany and current popular right-wing politicians?
- flangola7 3y ago
  Quacks like a duck, etc. NSDAP were in power for over a decade before the first concentration camp was ever built. Their rhetoric in the 30s was not as direct and violent as their later actions, that doesn't mean they weren't still Nazis.
  - megapolitics 3y ago
    >NSDAP were in power for over a decade before the first concentration camp was ever built. The first concentration camp, Nohra, opened in 1933, the year the Nazis took power. The more well known Dachau was also opened that year.
    - MandieD 3y ago
      I think GP was mixing up concentration camps (Konzentrationslager), an umbrella term for both work/prison camps (never really secret, killing prisoners was a side effect but not the ostensible purpose, initially targeted German citizens with leftish politics who were vocal against the new regime) with extermination camps (subtype of concentration camp, not publicized, engineered for mass murder, where most of the Jews and a lot of the Roma/Sinti in Nazi-occupied Europe still there by 1942 were sent) Dachau was a concentration camp located in a Munich suburb that a large number of prisoners survived (but a lot did not) and were even sometimes (but not often) released from. Really bad, but nothing that awful governments hadn’t done before - in fact, was being done by our eventual allies to the East at the same time. Auschwitz was an extermination camp (Vernichtungslager), located in a distant corner of Poland that only a tiny fraction of people sent there survived. These camps and system were a new horror for the world, and the center of the Nuremberg war crimes trials. Those were planned at the beginning of 1941 (Wannsee Conference), so yes, put into operation about a decade after the Nazis came to power. Some places that were initially set up as work (to death) camps were later turned into outright extermination camps.
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  To paraphrase Mike Godwin himself, "Go for it, by all means. Fair game." The Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 was about as effective as the January 16 assault, and just as comically incompetent. But there was a lot of sympathy for the far-right terrorists among the German judiciary, just as there is today in the US. The prosecutors and judges who could have stopped the movement in its tracks instead chose to take it easy on the perpetrators, just like today. Now we get to wait ten years to see where, or if, these two convergent timelines diverge.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  Marine Le Pen is the daughter of an actual Nazi sympathizer and her politics arose out of those circles. One of the AfD’s leaders just got charged with using Nazi slogans. Spare me the fascist version of the “I’m shocked to find gambling is going on here” spiel. It’s beyond tedious. I’ll just copy and paste Sartre on anti-Semitism in response.
trafficante 3y ago
> We tried this in the 1930s in Europe and it didn’t seem to go very well. I agree, a bureaucracy banning books and reference material that ran counter to the approved narrative was quite disastrous. Hopefully we don’t repeat that mistake now that everyone is neatly siloed into digital echo chambers. Personally, I think we did pretty well against the (specifically online) deluge of misinformation and fringe ideas for about a decade or so prior to ~2010. Unfortunately, the “problem” of internet free speech seems to have been solved and now we’re just waiting to see whether the censors or the reactionaries win and what type of fresh authoritarian hell awaits on the other side.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  > now we’re just waiting to see whether the censors or the reactionaries win If you think these are the two camps, I recommend googling the words “Republican” and “book bans.”
  - silisili 3y ago
    There's a pretty big difference in wanting sexually explicit material out of classrooms, and outright book bans... I'd argue neither side has a stellar record today, but it's the other that's more speech stifling...
    - bugglebeetle 3y ago
      Acknowledging queer people exist or even that sex itself exists is not in anyway explicit. This is just American bigotry and Puritanism run amok.

xcdzvyn 3y ago

Am I correct in my understanding that your comment is equating Nazi Germany and current popular right-wing politicians?

flangola7 3y ago
Quacks like a duck, etc. NSDAP were in power for over a decade before the first concentration camp was ever built. Their rhetoric in the 30s was not as direct and violent as their later actions, that doesn't mean they weren't still Nazis.
- megapolitics 3y ago
  >NSDAP were in power for over a decade before the first concentration camp was ever built. The first concentration camp, Nohra, opened in 1933, the year the Nazis took power. The more well known Dachau was also opened that year.
  - MandieD 3y ago
    I think GP was mixing up concentration camps (Konzentrationslager), an umbrella term for both work/prison camps (never really secret, killing prisoners was a side effect but not the ostensible purpose, initially targeted German citizens with leftish politics who were vocal against the new regime) with extermination camps (subtype of concentration camp, not publicized, engineered for mass murder, where most of the Jews and a lot of the Roma/Sinti in Nazi-occupied Europe still there by 1942 were sent) Dachau was a concentration camp located in a Munich suburb that a large number of prisoners survived (but a lot did not) and were even sometimes (but not often) released from. Really bad, but nothing that awful governments hadn’t done before - in fact, was being done by our eventual allies to the East at the same time. Auschwitz was an extermination camp (Vernichtungslager), located in a distant corner of Poland that only a tiny fraction of people sent there survived. These camps and system were a new horror for the world, and the center of the Nuremberg war crimes trials. Those were planned at the beginning of 1941 (Wannsee Conference), so yes, put into operation about a decade after the Nazis came to power. Some places that were initially set up as work (to death) camps were later turned into outright extermination camps.
CamperBob2 3y ago
To paraphrase Mike Godwin himself, "Go for it, by all means. Fair game." The Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 was about as effective as the January 16 assault, and just as comically incompetent. But there was a lot of sympathy for the far-right terrorists among the German judiciary, just as there is today in the US. The prosecutors and judges who could have stopped the movement in its tracks instead chose to take it easy on the perpetrators, just like today. Now we get to wait ten years to see where, or if, these two convergent timelines diverge.
bugglebeetle 3y ago
Marine Le Pen is the daughter of an actual Nazi sympathizer and her politics arose out of those circles. One of the AfD’s leaders just got charged with using Nazi slogans. Spare me the fascist version of the “I’m shocked to find gambling is going on here” spiel. It’s beyond tedious. I’ll just copy and paste Sartre on anti-Semitism in response.

trafficante 3y ago

> We tried this in the 1930s in Europe and it didn’t seem to go very well. I agree, a bureaucracy banning books and reference material that ran counter to the approved narrative was quite disastrous. Hopefully we don’t repeat that mistake now that everyone is neatly siloed into digital echo chambers. Personally, I think we did pretty well against the (specifically online) deluge of misinformation and fringe ideas for about a decade or so prior to ~2010. Unfortunately, the “problem” of internet free speech seems to have been solved and now we’re just waiting to see whether the censors or the reactionaries win and what type of fresh authoritarian hell awaits on the other side.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
> now we’re just waiting to see whether the censors or the reactionaries win If you think these are the two camps, I recommend googling the words “Republican” and “book bans.”
- silisili 3y ago
  There's a pretty big difference in wanting sexually explicit material out of classrooms, and outright book bans... I'd argue neither side has a stellar record today, but it's the other that's more speech stifling...
  - bugglebeetle 3y ago
    Acknowledging queer people exist or even that sex itself exists is not in anyway explicit. This is just American bigotry and Puritanism run amok.