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You managed to not use calculus or algebra, even indirectly through having an intuitive understanding of it, during your time as a physicist or software enginee

You managed to not use calculus or algebra, even indirectly through having an intuitive understanding of it, during your time as a physicist or software engineer in machine learning?

dventimi 3y ago
It's been ten years since I moved into software engineering. It's been five years since I moved into data science and then machine learning. No. At no point in that interval did I ever sit down with pen and paper and "do algebra", something I did routinely in twelve years in science.
- brailsafe 3y ago
  Based on your other replies it seems like you have a fairly specific idea of what it means to use those categories of math. I doubt many people are literally putting pen to paper to work out equations manually, but that's probably not what many people would think of when considering whether they are making use of knowledge. If I say "I haven't taken notes, they've never helped in software dev" but just meant that I've never used a pen to write notes on paper, instead choosing a text file, that's a bit misleading.
  - dventimi 3y ago
    There's no need to infer what I mean from my comments because I'll say explicitly what I mean. I mean literally putting pen or pencil to paper, or chalk to a chalkboard, or marker to whiteboard, because if we're talking about algebra and high schools, that's the algebra American kids are taught to do in high school. At least, I was thirty years ago and my daughter was three years ago. That may not be what other people think of when they say they use the knowledge they learned in high school algebra, but I'm not obliged to think in their terms (the obverse is also obviously true).
    - gnicholas 3y ago
      One does not need to put a pen to paper in order to think about how linear functions scale, how they differ from nonlinear functions, etc. These are things you learn in Algebra class, and which are useful for thinking about (and calculating by hand, when precision is necessary) many aspects of life. One example: at my kids' school, they care mostly about whether a student is at grade level. If a student starts the year already knowing 95% of the standards, they make little to no effort to ensure that the student is learning. When talking to parents about this deficiency, I mentioned that the problem is they're looking at the students' position, not their rate-of-change. Were we "doing calculus"? No. But I wouldn't have thought the issue in these terms if I had never taken algebra (where I learned about slope) and calculus (where I learned about derivatives). I would also point out that I pretty much never do long division or long multiplication by hand. I use a calculator, or Siri. But that doesn't meant that students don't need to learn multiplication tables, and the process for doing multi-digit multiplication and division.
      - dventimi 3y ago
        And yet putting pen to paper to reduce and solve equations, solve sets of simultaneous equations, factor expressions, and find roots is what I did in algebra and what my daughter's doing in algebra. Personally, I don't believe that investment of her time and the public's resources in order that she think about "how linear functions scale" in some vague distant future should automatically be protected from scrutiny. Life is about tradeoffs. I enjoy math. Then again, other people enjoy chess. That doesn't necessarily mean everybody should be taught them, especially when time, attention, and resources are limited.
        gnicholas 3y ago
        If you had asked people who wrote down equations on paper and solved them, you would have gotten fewer hands raised. Instead, people would have asked you why that is the relevant question. You somehow think it doesn't count if someone uses algebraic reasoning to figure something out. It feels like you're moving the goalposts. I'll take my leave; good day!

You managed to not use calculus or algebra, even indirectly through having an intuitive understanding of it, during your time as a physicist or software engineer in machine learning?

dventimi 3y ago

It's been ten years since I moved into software engineering. It's been five years since I moved into data science and then machine learning. No. At no point in that interval did I ever sit down with pen and paper and "do algebra", something I did routinely in twelve years in science.

brailsafe 3y ago
Based on your other replies it seems like you have a fairly specific idea of what it means to use those categories of math. I doubt many people are literally putting pen to paper to work out equations manually, but that's probably not what many people would think of when considering whether they are making use of knowledge. If I say "I haven't taken notes, they've never helped in software dev" but just meant that I've never used a pen to write notes on paper, instead choosing a text file, that's a bit misleading.
- dventimi 3y ago
  There's no need to infer what I mean from my comments because I'll say explicitly what I mean. I mean literally putting pen or pencil to paper, or chalk to a chalkboard, or marker to whiteboard, because if we're talking about algebra and high schools, that's the algebra American kids are taught to do in high school. At least, I was thirty years ago and my daughter was three years ago. That may not be what other people think of when they say they use the knowledge they learned in high school algebra, but I'm not obliged to think in their terms (the obverse is also obviously true).
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    One does not need to put a pen to paper in order to think about how linear functions scale, how they differ from nonlinear functions, etc. These are things you learn in Algebra class, and which are useful for thinking about (and calculating by hand, when precision is necessary) many aspects of life. One example: at my kids' school, they care mostly about whether a student is at grade level. If a student starts the year already knowing 95% of the standards, they make little to no effort to ensure that the student is learning. When talking to parents about this deficiency, I mentioned that the problem is they're looking at the students' position, not their rate-of-change. Were we "doing calculus"? No. But I wouldn't have thought the issue in these terms if I had never taken algebra (where I learned about slope) and calculus (where I learned about derivatives). I would also point out that I pretty much never do long division or long multiplication by hand. I use a calculator, or Siri. But that doesn't meant that students don't need to learn multiplication tables, and the process for doing multi-digit multiplication and division.
    - dventimi 3y ago
      And yet putting pen to paper to reduce and solve equations, solve sets of simultaneous equations, factor expressions, and find roots is what I did in algebra and what my daughter's doing in algebra. Personally, I don't believe that investment of her time and the public's resources in order that she think about "how linear functions scale" in some vague distant future should automatically be protected from scrutiny. Life is about tradeoffs. I enjoy math. Then again, other people enjoy chess. That doesn't necessarily mean everybody should be taught them, especially when time, attention, and resources are limited.
      - gnicholas 3y ago
        If you had asked people who wrote down equations on paper and solved them, you would have gotten fewer hands raised. Instead, people would have asked you why that is the relevant question. You somehow think it doesn't count if someone uses algebraic reasoning to figure something out. It feels like you're moving the goalposts. I'll take my leave; good day!