3 ms·

This reads like a very narrow minded view of the world, even though it was in good spirit somehow.

by rudasn 3y ago

solardev 3y ago
Is it? Our system from the beginning was optimized for personal liberty, almost always at the cost of community. Those same values enabled and entrenched the classist society we have today, then further bolstered a completely useless and unresponsive political class. That's by design from the beginning. Oligarchy under the guise of false democracy... has it ever been any other way in this country? If not, there's no reason to mince words.
- throwmeout123 3y ago
  And it’s still better than europe! A true testament to that splendid idea that is liberty
  - solardev 3y ago
    Gotta disagree with ya there. I'd move to Europe in a heartbeat if they let me in.
  - dmje 3y ago
    Assuming irony here, if not LOL
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    excuse me?
- skissane 3y ago
  > Our system from the beginning was optimized for personal liberty, Really? The US had legal chattel slavery for the first 89 years of its independent existence. And the abolition of slavery was followed not long after by the imposition of legally enforced racial segregation, which then endured for another (approximately) 90 years. Doesn’t sound at all like a “system from the beginning… optimized for personal liberty”
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    They didn't say everybody's personal liberty. Of course working people are still all subject to exploitation hand over fist. Regardless, your comment is nothing but a pointless deviation.
    - brazzledazzle 3y ago
      Are you referring to chattel slaves and victims of racial segregation as working people? If so that seems like a very simplistic way to reframe it when their status hinged entirely on the color of their skin. I ask because I may be misreading your comment entirely and I don’t want to be uncharitable in my interpretation.
      - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
        You are misreading, if reading at all. I have no idea what you're responding to. I definitely didn't do that. However, their status only ostensibly depended on the color of their skin. Their function was of course literally to labor for the profits of the southern gentile. Racism is a byproduct of capitalism. The Black Panthers did not repeat this ad nauseam for no reason.
        skissane 3y ago
        > Racism is a byproduct of capitalism. If that were true, how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union (calling the Soviet Union "state capitalist" doesn't help here–it threatens to dilute the definition of "capitalist" to the point of meaninglessness; also, many of the Maoist advocates of "the Soviet Union was state capitalist" theory consider Soviet state capitalism to have begun with Stalin's death, yet the worst of Soviet racism, its genocidal excesses of mass deportation and mass murder, the antisemitic Doctors Plot, etc, occurred under Stalin's rule) Is there any evidence for a correlation between how much capitalism a society has and how much racism it has? I'm not aware of any. Without evidence, it is just an unjustified assertion.
- flagrant_taco 3y ago
  None of the issues you raise are inherent to individualism, you can find historic examples of community-focused societies that also have social classes and useless politicians. You also seen to be coming at it with a personal preference towards the community rather that the individual. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and both have pros/cons, but course you aren't going to like the focus on individual freedoms. Oligarchy was also absolutely not the plan from the beginning. Washington set the standard for a two-term limit precisely because he didn't want to see it turn into a lifetime appointment. What we have today evolved over time, though I would argue or problem today is fascism rather than an oligarchy.

This reads like a very narrow minded view of the world, even though it was in good spirit somehow.

by rudasn 3y ago

This reads like a very narrow minded view of the world, even though it was in good spirit somehow.

Is it? Our system from the beginning was optimized for personal liberty, almost always at the cost of community. Those same values enabled and entrenched the classist society we have today, then further bolstered a completely useless and unresponsive political class. That's by design from the beginning. Oligarchy under the guise of false democracy... has it ever been any other way in this country? If not, there's no reason to mince words.

throwmeout123 3y ago
And it’s still better than europe! A true testament to that splendid idea that is liberty
- solardev 3y ago
  Gotta disagree with ya there. I'd move to Europe in a heartbeat if they let me in.
- dmje 3y ago
  Assuming irony here, if not LOL
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  excuse me?
skissane 3y ago
> Our system from the beginning was optimized for personal liberty, Really? The US had legal chattel slavery for the first 89 years of its independent existence. And the abolition of slavery was followed not long after by the imposition of legally enforced racial segregation, which then endured for another (approximately) 90 years. Doesn’t sound at all like a “system from the beginning… optimized for personal liberty”
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  They didn't say everybody's personal liberty. Of course working people are still all subject to exploitation hand over fist. Regardless, your comment is nothing but a pointless deviation.
  - brazzledazzle 3y ago
    Are you referring to chattel slaves and victims of racial segregation as working people? If so that seems like a very simplistic way to reframe it when their status hinged entirely on the color of their skin. I ask because I may be misreading your comment entirely and I don’t want to be uncharitable in my interpretation.
    - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
      You are misreading, if reading at all. I have no idea what you're responding to. I definitely didn't do that. However, their status only ostensibly depended on the color of their skin. Their function was of course literally to labor for the profits of the southern gentile. Racism is a byproduct of capitalism. The Black Panthers did not repeat this ad nauseam for no reason.
      - skissane 3y ago
        > Racism is a byproduct of capitalism. If that were true, how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_the_Soviet_Union (calling the Soviet Union "state capitalist" doesn't help here–it threatens to dilute the definition of "capitalist" to the point of meaninglessness; also, many of the Maoist advocates of "the Soviet Union was state capitalist" theory consider Soviet state capitalism to have begun with Stalin's death, yet the worst of Soviet racism, its genocidal excesses of mass deportation and mass murder, the antisemitic Doctors Plot, etc, occurred under Stalin's rule) Is there any evidence for a correlation between how much capitalism a society has and how much racism it has? I'm not aware of any. Without evidence, it is just an unjustified assertion.
flagrant_taco 3y ago
None of the issues you raise are inherent to individualism, you can find historic examples of community-focused societies that also have social classes and useless politicians. You also seen to be coming at it with a personal preference towards the community rather that the individual. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that and both have pros/cons, but course you aren't going to like the focus on individual freedoms. Oligarchy was also absolutely not the plan from the beginning. Washington set the standard for a two-term limit precisely because he didn't want to see it turn into a lifetime appointment. What we have today evolved over time, though I would argue or problem today is fascism rather than an oligarchy.