5 ms·

We're launching with a great set of features we could do in a reasonable amount of time. If we had tried to reimplement every single Basecamp Classic feature in

by dhh 15y ago

We're launching with a great set of features we could do in a reasonable amount of time. If we had tried to reimplement every single Basecamp Classic feature in Basecamp Next before we launched, it would have taken a very long time. Basecamp Classic originally launched without even file uploads! We'll be busy bees making Basecamp Next fill in gaps all over the place in the coming months. Looking into how we can solve people's time tracking needs with a great workflow in Basecamp Next is high on that list!

palish 15y ago
Why did you do a full rewrite?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- ch0wn 15y ago
  It's pretty much all explained in this blog post: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3112-how-basecamp-next-got-to-be-so-damn-fast-without-using-much-client-side-ui http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3112-how-basecamp-next-got-to... Quote: "[...] one of the key arguments for a rewrite was that we wanted a dramatic leap forward in speed — one that wouldn’t be possible through mere evolution."
atourgates 15y ago
That's great to hear - but why does it take a rant on HN to communicate that integrating Time Tracking with Basecamp Next is a high priority? If you're committing to adding Time-Tracking in the future, publicize it, so users like me will be confident that it's worth sticking with Basecamp. Until that happens, you're telling us, "Sorry, you're not our target user base."
- dhh 15y ago
  We weren't happy with the time tracking integration in Classic. It was usable, but it wasn't great. We want to take our time to either come up with a better built-in solution or an integration with another tool or something else. This is a big part of why we're keeping Basecamp Classic around for a very long time. Basecamp Next was not going to launch with all the features that Classic already has. So it's OK that it's not a perfect fit for all existing customers on Day 1. The iPhone didn't have copy'n'paste for a while, either. There's just so much you can do for launch, if you want to ship.
  - jballanc 15y ago
    The iPhone anecdote is such an important one. Probably the most important lesson I learned working at Apple was: people don't remember that a feature was missing once you implement it, but they remember broken features long after you've fixed them.
    - ROFISH 15y ago
      Consequently, missing features are extremely sore when missing again, such as the ability to turn off 3G on the 4S. (Useful battery saver.)
- mapgrep 15y ago
  DHH seems shy about mentioning this so I will: 37signals has been thinking about killing time tracking. See the "Goodbye" list here. http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3110-basecamp-next-the-goodbye-list-and-the-hello-list http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3110-basecamp-next-the-goodby... There is a disclaimer, "Some stuff on the Goodbye list is completely gone from Next, while other things are just executed differently enough that they don’t resemble the way things worked in Classic... There’s some stuff on Goodbye that we ended up keeping." That said, it's probably worth keeping this "goodbye list" in mind when DHH says carefully hedged things like how the team is "looking into how we can solve people's time tracking needs with a great workflow in Basecamp Next." There's a good chance that will NOT be time tracking as you know it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think you should be kept waiting around for a feature that may be axed.
- eCa 15y ago
  "We have a lot of great ideas we’ll be exploring down the road. Time tracking may or may not be one of those – we haven’t made any decisions yet." http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3129-launch-the-all-new-basecamp#comment_73377 http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3129-launch-the-all-new-basec...
tomkin 15y ago
Firstly, great products. I use Basecamp everyday as well, but we are also dependant on "Time", although I side with the philosophical argument that the "Time" feature is essentially useless. I would want to get rid of it, too. Here's why: project managers like to think it's a way of predicting the next project timeframe. It's a giant fallacy. In no way, shape or form, does Time keeping give you any sense of what to expect, so for that reason - I applaud removing it. However, Mr. Project Manager isn't happy. And when he's not happy, I can't use your new Basecamp. Once that sets in as a consciousness and we feel 'Classic', someone is going to start hunting for an alternative. Based on this thread, I'd wager someone is currently tying all of your features + Time together and imposing the "You don't have to be 'Classic' any more!" marketing ploy. > If we had tried to reimplement every single Basecamp Classic feature in Basecamp Next before we launched, it would have taken a very long time. As a software developer, I understand this. But I also understand that giving the user the power to migrate projects one-by-one, managing 2 codebases and offering support for 2 products is also a very large undertaking. I feel like adding Time and Private messages would have taken less time and perhaps only pissed people off momentarily when you flipped the switch, like when Facebook and YouTube users protest and then eventually shut up. By over-engineering this process, I feel like you've opened yourselves up to competitors because now you're that company that is trying to satisfy everyone.
- ahlatimer 15y ago
  [T]he "Time" feature is essentially useless…[P]roject managers like to think it's a way of predicting the next project timeframe. There's more to time management than just prediction. When I was working for a company doing client work, we used Basecamp to keep track of how long we spent on each project so we could bill appropriately.
  - tomkin 15y ago
    Of course, I don't doubt that. We just don't use it for that, so for me it makes sense not to have it from my point of view.

by dhh 15y ago

palish 15y ago

Why did you do a full rewrite?

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
ch0wn 15y ago
It's pretty much all explained in this blog post: http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3112-how-basecamp-next-got-to-be-so-damn-fast-without-using-much-client-side-ui http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3112-how-basecamp-next-got-to... Quote: "[...] one of the key arguments for a rewrite was that we wanted a dramatic leap forward in speed — one that wouldn’t be possible through mere evolution."

atourgates 15y ago

That's great to hear - but why does it take a rant on HN to communicate that integrating Time Tracking with Basecamp Next is a high priority? If you're committing to adding Time-Tracking in the future, publicize it, so users like me will be confident that it's worth sticking with Basecamp. Until that happens, you're telling us, "Sorry, you're not our target user base."

dhh 15y ago
We weren't happy with the time tracking integration in Classic. It was usable, but it wasn't great. We want to take our time to either come up with a better built-in solution or an integration with another tool or something else. This is a big part of why we're keeping Basecamp Classic around for a very long time. Basecamp Next was not going to launch with all the features that Classic already has. So it's OK that it's not a perfect fit for all existing customers on Day 1. The iPhone didn't have copy'n'paste for a while, either. There's just so much you can do for launch, if you want to ship.
- jballanc 15y ago
  The iPhone anecdote is such an important one. Probably the most important lesson I learned working at Apple was: people don't remember that a feature was missing once you implement it, but they remember broken features long after you've fixed them.
  - ROFISH 15y ago
    Consequently, missing features are extremely sore when missing again, such as the ability to turn off 3G on the 4S. (Useful battery saver.)
mapgrep 15y ago
DHH seems shy about mentioning this so I will: 37signals has been thinking about killing time tracking. See the "Goodbye" list here. http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3110-basecamp-next-the-goodbye-list-and-the-hello-list http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3110-basecamp-next-the-goodby... There is a disclaimer, "Some stuff on the Goodbye list is completely gone from Next, while other things are just executed differently enough that they don’t resemble the way things worked in Classic... There’s some stuff on Goodbye that we ended up keeping." That said, it's probably worth keeping this "goodbye list" in mind when DHH says carefully hedged things like how the team is "looking into how we can solve people's time tracking needs with a great workflow in Basecamp Next." There's a good chance that will NOT be time tracking as you know it. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I don't think you should be kept waiting around for a feature that may be axed.
eCa 15y ago
"We have a lot of great ideas we’ll be exploring down the road. Time tracking may or may not be one of those – we haven’t made any decisions yet." http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3129-launch-the-all-new-basecamp#comment_73377 http://37signals.com/svn/posts/3129-launch-the-all-new-basec...

tomkin 15y ago

Firstly, great products. I use Basecamp everyday as well, but we are also dependant on "Time", although I side with the philosophical argument that the "Time" feature is essentially useless. I would want to get rid of it, too. Here's why: project managers like to think it's a way of predicting the next project timeframe. It's a giant fallacy. In no way, shape or form, does Time keeping give you any sense of what to expect, so for that reason - I applaud removing it. However, Mr. Project Manager isn't happy. And when he's not happy, I can't use your new Basecamp. Once that sets in as a consciousness and we feel 'Classic', someone is going to start hunting for an alternative. Based on this thread, I'd wager someone is currently tying all of your features + Time together and imposing the "You don't have to be 'Classic' any more!" marketing ploy. > If we had tried to reimplement every single Basecamp Classic feature in Basecamp Next before we launched, it would have taken a very long time. As a software developer, I understand this. But I also understand that giving the user the power to migrate projects one-by-one, managing 2 codebases and offering support for 2 products is also a very large undertaking. I feel like adding Time and Private messages would have taken less time and perhaps only pissed people off momentarily when you flipped the switch, like when Facebook and YouTube users protest and then eventually shut up. By over-engineering this process, I feel like you've opened yourselves up to competitors because now you're that company that is trying to satisfy everyone.

ahlatimer 15y ago
[T]he "Time" feature is essentially useless…[P]roject managers like to think it's a way of predicting the next project timeframe. There's more to time management than just prediction. When I was working for a company doing client work, we used Basecamp to keep track of how long we spent on each project so we could bill appropriately.
- tomkin 15y ago
  Of course, I don't doubt that. We just don't use it for that, so for me it makes sense not to have it from my point of view.