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> Companies like Samsung, Google, Apple, etc., don’t design devices specific to Europe. I think they actually will do just that. Look at the Wikipedia page for

by dangus 3y ago

> Companies like Samsung, Google, Apple, etc., don’t design devices specific to Europe. I think they actually will do just that. Look at the Wikipedia page for any iPhone and you’ll see that each model has multiple regional SKUs. China has a SIM card tray while the US doesn’t. I think smartphone makers will make the battery rectangular and put it in a convenient spot and then make a different rear case part just for Europe. The rest of the world phones will have perhaps the exact same “removable” battery but it will be behind a case that has no door.

crooked-v 3y ago
The waterproofing in particular makes me think this is likely. Many average consumers care way more about having a device that will survive being dropped in the sink now than they do about replacing an 80% capacity battery in two years.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Nokia already had waterproof phones during the Symbian OS and Series 30/40 heyday. They did just fine with replaceable batteries.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Samsung S5 was waterproof while having replaceable battery. Technology is certainly there. But I also question your premise, I don't think it's as clear. I've never dropped my phone in a sink, but had battery issues with basically every phone. Often the battery starts failing much earlier than 80% in two years.
- traverseda 3y ago
  What I've never understood is why all this waterproofing effort is going into making perfectly sealed little boxes when I imagine that a factory applied conformal coating would do a similar job. It seems like they're focused on making the box the electronics are in water proof instead of making the electronics themselves waterproof. Sure, the screen might be a bit harder and you'd need to pay special attention to any connector, maybe re-applying the coating if you remove a connector, but I just don't get it. Does conformal coating not work as well as I imagine it does? Is it too expensive to apply? Does it have some kind of heat dissipation drawback I'm not aware of? To me it looks like water proofing is being used as an excuse to add built-in obsolescence to products, since I imagine that conformal coating would do the job better. What am I missing?
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    This is about replacing, and thus having access to, the battery and it's terminals. Water is a conductor. I imagine shorting the battery terminals with water will have disastrous consequences, regardless of if the RAM is encased in epoxy.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
  Making a phone waterproof doesn't require gluing the battery to the chassis and gluing the back on.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  > replacing an 80% capacity battery in two years The falloff has to be way more than 20% for two years?
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    It heavily depends on the usage pattern. If you charge in the evening to 100%, let it on the charger overnight and then during the day discharge to 0%, that might kill the battery completely within 2 years. Keeping it within 20-80% most of the time might keep the battery healthier.
    - ars 3y ago
      20 is a bit low - I would stay above 40.
      - xboxnolifes 3y ago
        Why
        ars 3y ago
        Because 20% will still harm a battery (less then 0% obviously), above 40 to 80 approximately the no-harm zone.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I have a 3 year old phone that's at 85%. That seems to be a pretty normal pattern for me over the past 10+ years.
  - thebruce87m 3y ago
    iPhone 11 Pro Max (Sep 2019) on 86% here.
    - manuelmoreale 3y ago
      Same phone, sitting at 82% without caring too much about charging patterns.
- ars 3y ago
  Why do people keep mentioning waterproofing? There is exactly nothing preventing a waterproof phone from having a replaceable battery. It's not even hard to do. The main faucet to your house sits under 60psi water pressure all day, and the moving parts are removable. This is 100 year old technology.
The_Colonel 3y ago
> I think smartphone makers will make the battery rectangular They are still rectangular. I actually thought they are more irregular, trying to use the available space more efficiently, but e.g. Samsung S23 Ultra battery looks like a normal rectangle. Their casing is much thinner, though, since they don't have to assume rougher handling by an end consumer. I wonder if perhaps there will be two batteries of the same shape - the non-replaceable will have a thinner casing, but with a somewhat higher capacity.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  The bigger iPhones have L-shaped batteries.
RC_ITR 3y ago
A problem with this idea is that batteries became removable to make thinner/smaller/waterproof phones. Regardless of whether or not you think that's an important thing to design for, these smartphone designers' product orgs. do. So realistically, given Europe is <10% of the global population (and an increasingly small share of Wealth/GDP), this will just result in EU SKUs that don't get updated very often and are thicker. Will be interesting to see if this just causes a grey market in less eco-conscious markets, while other places that conform just get known for having bulky phones (a la Japan and faxes).
- reillyse 3y ago
  The EU is home to 447 million rich people who buy lots of smartphones. It's easily the biggest market for high-end smartphones in the world. Also as a tangent GDP is pretty useless when talking about how much money individuals have to spend on smartphones.
  - tgv 3y ago
    Apple and Samsung each sold 16M devices in 2020 in the EU, and apparently even 40%-50% more in 2022. That's well over $5B. They're not going to walk away from such a market. Plus, if I understood it properly, India is contemplating a similar law.
  - RC_ITR 3y ago
    > It's easily the biggest market for high-end smartphones in the world. Europe is around 45% smaller than US revenue for Apple (and about 25% of overall revenue) and has lost share every year since at least 2018. [0] The US and Europe see similar volume sales (both way less than Asia).[1] It's just simply not true that Europe is by any means the largest smartphone market at any segment. [0]https://www.bamsec.com/filing/32019322000108?cik=320193 https://www.bamsec.com/filing/32019322000108?cik=320193 [1]https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/global-smartphone-market-2022 https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/global-smartphone-market-20...
    - pessimizer 3y ago
ghaff 3y ago
At the volumes of those manufacturers, if there's a design they consider somewhat suboptimal that's needed to meet EU requirements, they can pretty much trivially offer a variant for the EU that meets those requirements.

by dangus 3y ago

crooked-v 3y ago

The waterproofing in particular makes me think this is likely. Many average consumers care way more about having a device that will survive being dropped in the sink now than they do about replacing an 80% capacity battery in two years.

pjmlp 3y ago
Nokia already had waterproof phones during the Symbian OS and Series 30/40 heyday. They did just fine with replaceable batteries.
The_Colonel 3y ago
Samsung S5 was waterproof while having replaceable battery. Technology is certainly there. But I also question your premise, I don't think it's as clear. I've never dropped my phone in a sink, but had battery issues with basically every phone. Often the battery starts failing much earlier than 80% in two years.
traverseda 3y ago
What I've never understood is why all this waterproofing effort is going into making perfectly sealed little boxes when I imagine that a factory applied conformal coating would do a similar job. It seems like they're focused on making the box the electronics are in water proof instead of making the electronics themselves waterproof. Sure, the screen might be a bit harder and you'd need to pay special attention to any connector, maybe re-applying the coating if you remove a connector, but I just don't get it. Does conformal coating not work as well as I imagine it does? Is it too expensive to apply? Does it have some kind of heat dissipation drawback I'm not aware of? To me it looks like water proofing is being used as an excuse to add built-in obsolescence to products, since I imagine that conformal coating would do the job better. What am I missing?
- HWR_14 3y ago
  This is about replacing, and thus having access to, the battery and it's terminals. Water is a conductor. I imagine shorting the battery terminals with water will have disastrous consequences, regardless of if the RAM is encased in epoxy.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
Making a phone waterproof doesn't require gluing the battery to the chassis and gluing the back on.
rightbyte 3y ago
> replacing an 80% capacity battery in two years The falloff has to be way more than 20% for two years?
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  It heavily depends on the usage pattern. If you charge in the evening to 100%, let it on the charger overnight and then during the day discharge to 0%, that might kill the battery completely within 2 years. Keeping it within 20-80% most of the time might keep the battery healthier.
  - ars 3y ago
    20 is a bit low - I would stay above 40.
    - xboxnolifes 3y ago
      Why
      - ars 3y ago
        Because 20% will still harm a battery (less then 0% obviously), above 40 to 80 approximately the no-harm zone.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I have a 3 year old phone that's at 85%. That seems to be a pretty normal pattern for me over the past 10+ years.
- thebruce87m 3y ago
  iPhone 11 Pro Max (Sep 2019) on 86% here.
  - manuelmoreale 3y ago
    Same phone, sitting at 82% without caring too much about charging patterns.
ars 3y ago
Why do people keep mentioning waterproofing? There is exactly nothing preventing a waterproof phone from having a replaceable battery. It's not even hard to do. The main faucet to your house sits under 60psi water pressure all day, and the moving parts are removable. This is 100 year old technology.

The_Colonel 3y ago

> I think smartphone makers will make the battery rectangular They are still rectangular. I actually thought they are more irregular, trying to use the available space more efficiently, but e.g. Samsung S23 Ultra battery looks like a normal rectangle. Their casing is much thinner, though, since they don't have to assume rougher handling by an end consumer. I wonder if perhaps there will be two batteries of the same shape - the non-replaceable will have a thinner casing, but with a somewhat higher capacity.

crooked-v 3y ago
The bigger iPhones have L-shaped batteries.

RC_ITR 3y ago

A problem with this idea is that batteries became removable to make thinner/smaller/waterproof phones. Regardless of whether or not you think that's an important thing to design for, these smartphone designers' product orgs. do. So realistically, given Europe is <10% of the global population (and an increasingly small share of Wealth/GDP), this will just result in EU SKUs that don't get updated very often and are thicker. Will be interesting to see if this just causes a grey market in less eco-conscious markets, while other places that conform just get known for having bulky phones (a la Japan and faxes).

reillyse 3y ago
The EU is home to 447 million rich people who buy lots of smartphones. It's easily the biggest market for high-end smartphones in the world. Also as a tangent GDP is pretty useless when talking about how much money individuals have to spend on smartphones.
- tgv 3y ago
  Apple and Samsung each sold 16M devices in 2020 in the EU, and apparently even 40%-50% more in 2022. That's well over $5B. They're not going to walk away from such a market. Plus, if I understood it properly, India is contemplating a similar law.
- RC_ITR 3y ago
  > It's easily the biggest market for high-end smartphones in the world. Europe is around 45% smaller than US revenue for Apple (and about 25% of overall revenue) and has lost share every year since at least 2018. [0] The US and Europe see similar volume sales (both way less than Asia).[1] It's just simply not true that Europe is by any means the largest smartphone market at any segment. [0]https://www.bamsec.com/filing/32019322000108?cik=320193 https://www.bamsec.com/filing/32019322000108?cik=320193 [1]https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/global-smartphone-market-2022 https://www.canalys.com/newsroom/global-smartphone-market-20...
  - pessimizer 3y ago

ghaff 3y ago

At the volumes of those manufacturers, if there's a design they consider somewhat suboptimal that's needed to meet EU requirements, they can pretty much trivially offer a variant for the EU that meets those requirements.