5 ms·

> practical use cases This is satire right?

bottlepalm 3y ago
Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  The problem is that the use case is generally criminal, which crypto people elide by complaining about whichever country's government is currently being attacked in the media. They do this in order to make dodging taxes and government oversight sound heroic. It's also a way to transform a conversation about fraud and free-riding into easy nationalist cheerleading. What people want is anonymity, cheap/free checking, and cheap/free money transfers. Crypto thus far has partially supplied the first, and is so bad at the second two that the only profitable reason to use it is to dodge some sort of official oversight when dealing with large amounts of money.
  - bottlepalm 3y ago
    I must be a criminal then lol. Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. That's why a lot of people use it. We pay our taxes when transacting it just the same. If you don't use Bitcoin, great, but don't make assumptions about those of us who do.
    - Forgeties79 3y ago
      > Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. There is no way you will convince me that setting up and using Bitcoin for daily transactions, all on your own wallet with your keys etc., is “easy” or any less of a “pain in the ass” than using a regular modern bank is on a daily basis. That’s even ignoring the baseline tech literacy one needs to have to get set up. It’s a dead horse at this point but “practical” also comes at odds with bitcoin’s volatility.
      - latchkey 3y ago
        As a US citizen who has lived for multiple years in Vietnam, I can guarantee to you that using Bitcoin is infinitely easier than dealing with the VN banking system. Forget the legal/identity aspects, just the language and cultural barriers alone are a huge pain in the arse.
        Forgeties79 3y ago
        I find it hard to believe you are doing even half your daily transactions without converting to fiat. I also don’t know how you can wait a few minutes for a transaction to clear potentially dozens of times in a single day. So my guess is you largely deal with dong regardless of how you store your wealth. This just sounds like a quick sound bite where the day to day realities would tell a more nuanced story. If it were more convenient, then more people would be doing it. There is nothing convenient about setting up a bitcoin wallet and converting your money back-and-forth between it dozens of times a week, if not a day. This is especially difficult without the regular use of exchanges, which many crypto advocates will try to dissuade you from storing any crypto on, because you are functionally just using a bank again at that point and exposing yourself. “Not your keys not your crypto,” plus another online account to get hacked. Being your own bank is a ton of work and most people don’t want to deal with that.
        latchkey 3y ago
        You're stuck on bitcoin, there are other cryptos far more suited to these things, like USDC/USDT. I only mentioned bitcoin because, even with the complexities of it, it is still easier than dealing with VN banks. That's how hard it is to deal with. This is not a sound bite at all. More people ARE doing it, you just don't have any personal visibility into it. TONS of viets living abroad send money back and forth all the time. Money remittance is a huge global industry and the existing solutions all suck. KYC and fees are the two general major issues for people who just want to send money to their families. Expats, like me, have an even harder time. Language and cultural issues often get the in way. If you're a nomad who works online and doesn't have a 'regular' job... you're out of the system and hard for the banking system to deal with. Try walking into a bank where literally nobody speaks english and open an account. In Vietnam, there is also something that the US doesn't have much of. A black market for funds. I can send USDC to Vietnam and a local there will convert it to VND for a very small fee and zero hassle. These are all things that based on your comments, don't impact you. That doesn't mean they aren't valid or that the usecase is moot. Try walking in others shoes for a bit before you jump to conclusions about things.
- Forgeties79 3y ago
  > Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly But who needs this every day? Most people value security of their money over that kind of flexibility, especially when modern online banking gives you 95% of the same benefits. Besides, one can tout all the “real” advantages they want, but perception is everything. If people think crypto is a quick way to get stolen from they simply won’t use it. No amount of convenience will get someone to go through the process of setting up a wallet, downloading the ledger, setting up an account on an exchange (which requires them to link a bank account!), and convert their money to crypto. All so they can maybe get some perks a small % care about, let alone need. I can move $10,000 or less daily, all near-instantly from my computer with my bank. I can’t imagine a world where I need more than that on the regular. That’s something many go years without doing.
  - bottlepalm 3y ago
    Yea I guess this is where you anecdotal experience runs out because there are a lot of busy people and companies out there working in all sorts of industries moving a lot more than 10k around constantly. Banks are an unnecessary middle man not only slowing things down, but taking a a cut out of transactions as well.
    - Forgeties79 3y ago
      Anecdotal? Most people aren’t corporations. Most people have absolutely no need to move over 10k USD in a single day regularly. You can take it at face value, it’s very obvious. You’re also forgetting that businesses already can. The 10k example was for me as an individual. It sounds like you're saying businesses are currently unable to transfer large sums of money regularly and Bitcoin is their solution. It's very perplexing.
      - bottlepalm 3y ago
        > people have absolutely no need to move over 10k USD in a single day regularly I guess you don't know what you don't know.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  > Moving large amounts of money I can do this with any remittance company > 24/7 worldwide Table stakes for any remit company > outside of any bank This is a con, not a pro. Banks add value and protect your money. They are regulated, insured and backed. > quickly All remit companies are instant nowadays (except in USA which has stupidly slow banking) > low transaction fee Bitcoin network fees are approximately equal to fees on OrbitRemit, Wise, etc. > pure P2P See the "outside of banks" point above. > and then being able to store it securely If you do absolutely everything right. > outside of a bank See above. > in your pocket ??
  - latchkey 3y ago
    > Banks add value and protect your money. They are regulated, insured and backed. Which country are you referring to exactly? Or do you only have a US centric view on these things?
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      I'm not American and have never been to America or held an American bank account. So, no.
      - latchkey 3y ago
        In Vietnam, the equivalent 'fdic' insurance is about $3k, if you are lucky. Banks also go out of business there, left and right. So when you generalize about the banking system, maybe in whatever your country is, things are rosy, but in so many countries in the rest of the world, things are a huge mess. These are all things that based on your comments, don't impact you. That doesn't mean they aren't valid or that the usecase is moot. Try walking in others shoes for a bit before you jump to conclusions about things.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- alangibson 3y ago
  I transfer money internationally weekly. I would never consider using Bitcoin for this for these reasons: - volatility. This alone kills the wire transfer replacement use case - theft. Just read the news on this one. - speed. Instant SEPA is faster than any cryptocurrency. - fees. Many types of bank transfer are free. Crypto transaction fees are often high. When they're not, they are highly volatile. IMHO 'p2p' and 'outside any bank' are liabilities, not features.
  - latchkey 3y ago
    > - speed. Instant SEPA is faster than any cryptocurrency. Not really, when you take into consideration the KYC aspects. > - fees. Many types of bank transfer are free. Crypto transaction fees are often high. When they're not, they are highly volatile. Fees on the L2 chains are fractions of a penny.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- phailhaus 3y ago
  Transaction fees are based on volume, and can vary wildly up to $50. And you can't store Bitcoin "in your pocket", you can only store your key, like storing your bank password. Except if you lose your bank password, you don't lose all your money. I've noticed this pattern with a lot of other crypto-evangelists: you put a lot of emphasis on being able to transact "outside of banks", but most people don't care. They just want convenience, and the safeguards that banks provide are worth it for them.

Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly, low transaction fee - pure P2P, and then being able to store it securely outside of a bank in your pocket. Have you dealt with wiring money before? How about holding large amounts of currency or gold outside of a bank? It sucks.

pessimizer 3y ago
The problem is that the use case is generally criminal, which crypto people elide by complaining about whichever country's government is currently being attacked in the media. They do this in order to make dodging taxes and government oversight sound heroic. It's also a way to transform a conversation about fraud and free-riding into easy nationalist cheerleading. What people want is anonymity, cheap/free checking, and cheap/free money transfers. Crypto thus far has partially supplied the first, and is so bad at the second two that the only profitable reason to use it is to dodge some sort of official oversight when dealing with large amounts of money.
- bottlepalm 3y ago
  I must be a criminal then lol. Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. That's why a lot of people use it. We pay our taxes when transacting it just the same. If you don't use Bitcoin, great, but don't make assumptions about those of us who do.
  - Forgeties79 3y ago
    > Banks are a pain in the ass to deal with. Bitcoin is a very practical and easy way to move large amounts of money around. There is no way you will convince me that setting up and using Bitcoin for daily transactions, all on your own wallet with your keys etc., is “easy” or any less of a “pain in the ass” than using a regular modern bank is on a daily basis. That’s even ignoring the baseline tech literacy one needs to have to get set up. It’s a dead horse at this point but “practical” also comes at odds with bitcoin’s volatility.
    - latchkey 3y ago
      As a US citizen who has lived for multiple years in Vietnam, I can guarantee to you that using Bitcoin is infinitely easier than dealing with the VN banking system. Forget the legal/identity aspects, just the language and cultural barriers alone are a huge pain in the arse.
      - Forgeties79 3y ago
        I find it hard to believe you are doing even half your daily transactions without converting to fiat. I also don’t know how you can wait a few minutes for a transaction to clear potentially dozens of times in a single day. So my guess is you largely deal with dong regardless of how you store your wealth. This just sounds like a quick sound bite where the day to day realities would tell a more nuanced story. If it were more convenient, then more people would be doing it. There is nothing convenient about setting up a bitcoin wallet and converting your money back-and-forth between it dozens of times a week, if not a day. This is especially difficult without the regular use of exchanges, which many crypto advocates will try to dissuade you from storing any crypto on, because you are functionally just using a bank again at that point and exposing yourself. “Not your keys not your crypto,” plus another online account to get hacked. Being your own bank is a ton of work and most people don’t want to deal with that.
        latchkey 3y ago
        You're stuck on bitcoin, there are other cryptos far more suited to these things, like USDC/USDT. I only mentioned bitcoin because, even with the complexities of it, it is still easier than dealing with VN banks. That's how hard it is to deal with. This is not a sound bite at all. More people ARE doing it, you just don't have any personal visibility into it. TONS of viets living abroad send money back and forth all the time. Money remittance is a huge global industry and the existing solutions all suck. KYC and fees are the two general major issues for people who just want to send money to their families. Expats, like me, have an even harder time. Language and cultural issues often get the in way. If you're a nomad who works online and doesn't have a 'regular' job... you're out of the system and hard for the banking system to deal with. Try walking into a bank where literally nobody speaks english and open an account. In Vietnam, there is also something that the US doesn't have much of. A black market for funds. I can send USDC to Vietnam and a local there will convert it to VND for a very small fee and zero hassle. These are all things that based on your comments, don't impact you. That doesn't mean they aren't valid or that the usecase is moot. Try walking in others shoes for a bit before you jump to conclusions about things.
Forgeties79 3y ago
> Moving large amounts of money 24/7 worldwide, outside of any bank, quickly But who needs this every day? Most people value security of their money over that kind of flexibility, especially when modern online banking gives you 95% of the same benefits. Besides, one can tout all the “real” advantages they want, but perception is everything. If people think crypto is a quick way to get stolen from they simply won’t use it. No amount of convenience will get someone to go through the process of setting up a wallet, downloading the ledger, setting up an account on an exchange (which requires them to link a bank account!), and convert their money to crypto. All so they can maybe get some perks a small % care about, let alone need. I can move $10,000 or less daily, all near-instantly from my computer with my bank. I can’t imagine a world where I need more than that on the regular. That’s something many go years without doing.
- bottlepalm 3y ago
  Yea I guess this is where you anecdotal experience runs out because there are a lot of busy people and companies out there working in all sorts of industries moving a lot more than 10k around constantly. Banks are an unnecessary middle man not only slowing things down, but taking a a cut out of transactions as well.
  - Forgeties79 3y ago
    Anecdotal? Most people aren’t corporations. Most people have absolutely no need to move over 10k USD in a single day regularly. You can take it at face value, it’s very obvious. You’re also forgetting that businesses already can. The 10k example was for me as an individual. It sounds like you're saying businesses are currently unable to transfer large sums of money regularly and Bitcoin is their solution. It's very perplexing.
    - bottlepalm 3y ago
      > people have absolutely no need to move over 10k USD in a single day regularly I guess you don't know what you don't know.
mvdtnz 3y ago
> Moving large amounts of money I can do this with any remittance company > 24/7 worldwide Table stakes for any remit company > outside of any bank This is a con, not a pro. Banks add value and protect your money. They are regulated, insured and backed. > quickly All remit companies are instant nowadays (except in USA which has stupidly slow banking) > low transaction fee Bitcoin network fees are approximately equal to fees on OrbitRemit, Wise, etc. > pure P2P See the "outside of banks" point above. > and then being able to store it securely If you do absolutely everything right. > outside of a bank See above. > in your pocket ??
- latchkey 3y ago
  > Banks add value and protect your money. They are regulated, insured and backed. Which country are you referring to exactly? Or do you only have a US centric view on these things?
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    I'm not American and have never been to America or held an American bank account. So, no.
    - latchkey 3y ago
      In Vietnam, the equivalent 'fdic' insurance is about $3k, if you are lucky. Banks also go out of business there, left and right. So when you generalize about the banking system, maybe in whatever your country is, things are rosy, but in so many countries in the rest of the world, things are a huge mess. These are all things that based on your comments, don't impact you. That doesn't mean they aren't valid or that the usecase is moot. Try walking in others shoes for a bit before you jump to conclusions about things.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
alangibson 3y ago
I transfer money internationally weekly. I would never consider using Bitcoin for this for these reasons: - volatility. This alone kills the wire transfer replacement use case - theft. Just read the news on this one. - speed. Instant SEPA is faster than any cryptocurrency. - fees. Many types of bank transfer are free. Crypto transaction fees are often high. When they're not, they are highly volatile. IMHO 'p2p' and 'outside any bank' are liabilities, not features.
- latchkey 3y ago
  > - speed. Instant SEPA is faster than any cryptocurrency. Not really, when you take into consideration the KYC aspects. > - fees. Many types of bank transfer are free. Crypto transaction fees are often high. When they're not, they are highly volatile. Fees on the L2 chains are fractions of a penny.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
phailhaus 3y ago
Transaction fees are based on volume, and can vary wildly up to $50. And you can't store Bitcoin "in your pocket", you can only store your key, like storing your bank password. Except if you lose your bank password, you don't lose all your money. I've noticed this pattern with a lot of other crypto-evangelists: you put a lot of emphasis on being able to transact "outside of banks", but most people don't care. They just want convenience, and the safeguards that banks provide are worth it for them.