12 ms·

> but there may be risks, especially if folks don't take the medicine correctly. This describes every over-the-counter drug that has ever been sold. Keeping co

by runako 3y ago

> but there may be risks, especially if folks don't take the medicine correctly. This describes every over-the-counter drug that has ever been sold. Keeping contraception prescription-only has always been about politics.

candiddevmike 3y ago
There are non hormonal options out there like IUDs (and condoms) that may be a better option though. Speaking as a parent, I would rather have my kids come talk to me /my wife about this stuff and work with us and a doctor to figure out what's best for them long term. I recognize not every kid has that kind of relationship with their parents and would benefit from purchasing it directly.
- odyssey7 3y ago
  As much as this is coming from a good place with good intentions, some things are human rights[1] that parents shouldn’t be able to withhold. [1] https://theweek.com/articles/470330/birth-control-human-right https://theweek.com/articles/470330/birth-control-human-righ...
  - giantg2 3y ago
    That doesn't contradict what the parent is saying. Having access to non-hormonal options still fulfills the UN stance.
  - nsxwolf 3y ago
    This being a "human right" seems like a matter of opinion.
  - Levitz 3y ago
    Your article talks about an annual report, then links another article written 3 years before the one you link, said article doesn't link to the report. So I search for the report itself: https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/AR%202012%20EN-Final.pdf https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/AR%202012%... And the claim is nowhere near the one you are making. What the UNFPA (who can't even declare anything a human right, by the way) is saying is: >Family planning is anchored in respect for human rights, women’s empowerment, and social justice and quality. And >In October, UNFPA published its annual The State of World Population report, which made the case that family planning is a basic human right that unlocks unprecedented rewards for women in terms of health, economic power and gender equality. Putting medical barriers to access the pill is by no means whatsoever a violation of human rights.
- runako 3y ago
  > There are non hormonal options out there like IUDs (and condoms) that may be a better option though. Whether one agrees or disagrees with this, the argument is not strong enough to warrant a prescription requirement. (Also and separately: human bodies are complex. If you talk to a few women you might discover that IUDs are not universally tolerated and condoms are not an acceptable substitute for a variety of reasons. There are good reasons many women choose to take oral contraceptives, even though they have a daily use requirement.) This isn't just about kids, it's also about the inconvenience and added cost (to pay for the doctor visits) placed on all women who use oral contraceptives. I'm not sure how it relates at all to this announcement.
  - angmarsbane 3y ago
    Attempting to get an IUD installed was the most physically painful experience in my life to date.
    - cogman10 3y ago
      IUDs don't have great track records for safety. [1] The pill is simply one of the safest options on the market. It's not perfect, but it's generally super well tolerated. [1] https://www.consumersafety.org/medical-device-lawsuits/mirena/ https://www.consumersafety.org/medical-device-lawsuits/miren...
growse 3y ago
[flagged]
- nathancahill 3y ago
  [flagged]
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  To be fair you can’t even get dick pills in the states without a script (though these days you can get them expensively online via nonsense e-consultation). Meanwhile in Mexico you can buy generic Cialis and all sorts of drugs over the counter for $20/mo. Insulin and epi pens too.
sugarpile 3y ago
How do you think the two are equivalent? Hormone medications can have a profound impact on a person across the spectrum from mental to physical health. Secondly, taking BC wrong may lead to a false sense of security and subsequent unwanted pregnancies. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well. Neither of those are a thing someone buying tylenol has to worry about. Disingenuous or poorly considered to think it can _only_ be about politics imo.
- ribosometronome 3y ago
  >Secondly, taking BC wrong ... Neither of those are a thing someone buying tylenol has to worry about. Taking Tylenol wrong kills you.
- giantg2 3y ago
  "I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well." I would highly doubt it. Contraception is already abundantly avaliable, including in online visits. I could see people switching from Rx to OTC. But I really don't think you could have a big enough increase in non-users to OTC to have any significant data.
- stubybubs 3y ago
  "Acetaminophen toxicity is the second most common cause of liver transplantation worldwide and the most common cause of liver transplantation in the US. It is responsible for 56,000 emergency department visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and 500 deaths per year in the United States." Emerg docs giving out NAC like candy for acetaminophen overdoses. It would never be approved if released today, but we've got a long history with it being OTC, so I don't see that changing.
- ericmay 3y ago
  Let's get big government nanny state out of the way here. People can make their own decisions. It's not like you can't consult with a physician when taking contraceptives over the counter anyway. Everything you said here you can apply to other behaviors, ranging from alcohol/marijuana consumption, to eating fast food, to skydiving. OTC here is a result of politics specifically because access is being restricted or in the midst of being restricted. The reason this wasn't OTC was because there just wasn't a need to bother with it. Now there is. > I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well. This is really unsubstantiated and it would be nice if you didn't say things like this in the context of this conversation here unless you're going to provide a legitimate source. Even then if this were true I'm going to guess that an infinitesimal and unsubstantiated risk of higher STD rates is nothing compared to unwanted pregnancies from a public health standpoint.
tyre 3y ago
The FDA regulates both risks and efficacy. The efficacy of hormonal birth control plummets if not taken consistently, which for progestin-only pills (like this) includes the same time of day[0]. Talking to a doctor ensures that people really understand this. The downside of forgetting to take more advil in time is short-term pain. The downside of not understanding that your birth control isn't working is a child. As we've seen with patients stopping antibiotics early, even though they're prescription!, people make uninformed choices with medication. Depending on what it's for, there are more or less risks of making it OTC. All of that said, I agree that this has mostly been politics. [0]: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/is-the-birth-control-pill-still-effective-if-you-take-it-two-hours-after-the-time-you-are-supposed-to-take-it https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/is-the-birth-control-...
- a_wild_dandan 3y ago
  Conversely, the downside of forgetting when you can take Tylenol is maybe needing an organ transplant or dying. Which...is 100% efficacy on pain reduction, I suppose. So hey, the OTC medicine gods giveth and taketh.
- kodah 3y ago
  > Talking to a doctor ensures that people really understand this. This seems antiquated at best. They could've approved some kind of app or process to streamline this. I'm sure it's not the only kind of medication this situation applies to.
- cogman10 3y ago
  I'm not sure the point you're making here. The potential danger of forgetting to use a condom or misusing one (like a condom that's too old) is also a child. Condoms are currently sold in truck stop bathrooms. I really see no distinction between a condom and a birth control pill. Even with misuse, making the pill more widely available will almost certainly be a social good. It will prevent more unwanted children.
  - helipod12 3y ago
    Well you should, hormonal pills and latex are entirely different.
neuronerdgirl 3y ago
Good time to remind people that tylenol dosages as written on the bottle are just within the safety window to avoid toxicity[1]. Having done the math myself, you can't even take the extra strength stuff at the recommended timing without skipping a dose each day. Drugs, even OTC ones, have very real risks, and gatekeeping BC is laughable given the risks of not having it freely available. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/acetaminophen-safety-be-cautious-but-not-afraid https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/acetaminophen-safety-be-...
- travisjungroth 3y ago
  Tylenol/paracetamol/acetaminophen also barely works. It increases the effectiveness of an aspirin and caffeine combo to relieve headaches (but not migraines). It’s generally ineffective against chronic pain, back pain, and severe pain. It’s a weak fever reducer. It’s one of the most popular medications in the world and its use isn’t especially supported by science. To the point of this thread, don’t mistake official policy for rational behavior.
  - pyuser583 3y ago
    Could you give me some sources on acetaminophen effectiveness? I’m really interested in this.
    - travisjungroth 3y ago
      This article links to a bunch of studies: https://theconversation.com/whats-the-point-of-paracetamol-66808 https://theconversation.com/whats-the-point-of-paracetamol-6... Here’s an NIH meta analysis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33786837/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33786837/ There are lots of studies out there, throw whatever symptom + acetaminophen effectiveness into Google for more. Just make sure that if a study is making a big deal about stat sig to check the actual treatment effect.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    > It’s a weak fever reducer. Anecdotal, but acetaminophen has been my goto for fever reduction. I've never had a problem with it (and it's taken me from 103->98 fairly frequently). And, unlike most NSAIDs, it's safe(ish) for younger kids. That said, I've never really noticed the pain killing effects.

by runako 3y ago

candiddevmike 3y ago

There are non hormonal options out there like IUDs (and condoms) that may be a better option though. Speaking as a parent, I would rather have my kids come talk to me /my wife about this stuff and work with us and a doctor to figure out what's best for them long term. I recognize not every kid has that kind of relationship with their parents and would benefit from purchasing it directly.

odyssey7 3y ago
As much as this is coming from a good place with good intentions, some things are human rights[1] that parents shouldn’t be able to withhold. [1] https://theweek.com/articles/470330/birth-control-human-right https://theweek.com/articles/470330/birth-control-human-righ...
- giantg2 3y ago
  That doesn't contradict what the parent is saying. Having access to non-hormonal options still fulfills the UN stance.
- nsxwolf 3y ago
  This being a "human right" seems like a matter of opinion.
- Levitz 3y ago
  Your article talks about an annual report, then links another article written 3 years before the one you link, said article doesn't link to the report. So I search for the report itself: https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/AR%202012%20EN-Final.pdf https://www.unfpa.org/sites/default/files/pub-pdf/AR%202012%... And the claim is nowhere near the one you are making. What the UNFPA (who can't even declare anything a human right, by the way) is saying is: >Family planning is anchored in respect for human rights, women’s empowerment, and social justice and quality. And >In October, UNFPA published its annual The State of World Population report, which made the case that family planning is a basic human right that unlocks unprecedented rewards for women in terms of health, economic power and gender equality. Putting medical barriers to access the pill is by no means whatsoever a violation of human rights.
runako 3y ago
> There are non hormonal options out there like IUDs (and condoms) that may be a better option though. Whether one agrees or disagrees with this, the argument is not strong enough to warrant a prescription requirement. (Also and separately: human bodies are complex. If you talk to a few women you might discover that IUDs are not universally tolerated and condoms are not an acceptable substitute for a variety of reasons. There are good reasons many women choose to take oral contraceptives, even though they have a daily use requirement.) This isn't just about kids, it's also about the inconvenience and added cost (to pay for the doctor visits) placed on all women who use oral contraceptives. I'm not sure how it relates at all to this announcement.
- angmarsbane 3y ago
  Attempting to get an IUD installed was the most physically painful experience in my life to date.
  - cogman10 3y ago
    IUDs don't have great track records for safety. [1] The pill is simply one of the safest options on the market. It's not perfect, but it's generally super well tolerated. [1] https://www.consumersafety.org/medical-device-lawsuits/mirena/ https://www.consumersafety.org/medical-device-lawsuits/miren...

growse 3y ago

[flagged]

nathancahill 3y ago
[flagged]
hombre_fatal 3y ago
To be fair you can’t even get dick pills in the states without a script (though these days you can get them expensively online via nonsense e-consultation). Meanwhile in Mexico you can buy generic Cialis and all sorts of drugs over the counter for $20/mo. Insulin and epi pens too.

sugarpile 3y ago

How do you think the two are equivalent? Hormone medications can have a profound impact on a person across the spectrum from mental to physical health. Secondly, taking BC wrong may lead to a false sense of security and subsequent unwanted pregnancies. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well. Neither of those are a thing someone buying tylenol has to worry about. Disingenuous or poorly considered to think it can _only_ be about politics imo.

ribosometronome 3y ago
>Secondly, taking BC wrong ... Neither of those are a thing someone buying tylenol has to worry about. Taking Tylenol wrong kills you.
giantg2 3y ago
"I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well." I would highly doubt it. Contraception is already abundantly avaliable, including in online visits. I could see people switching from Rx to OTC. But I really don't think you could have a big enough increase in non-users to OTC to have any significant data.
stubybubs 3y ago
"Acetaminophen toxicity is the second most common cause of liver transplantation worldwide and the most common cause of liver transplantation in the US. It is responsible for 56,000 emergency department visits, 2,600 hospitalizations, and 500 deaths per year in the United States." Emerg docs giving out NAC like candy for acetaminophen overdoses. It would never be approved if released today, but we've got a long history with it being OTC, so I don't see that changing.
ericmay 3y ago
Let's get big government nanny state out of the way here. People can make their own decisions. It's not like you can't consult with a physician when taking contraceptives over the counter anyway. Everything you said here you can apply to other behaviors, ranging from alcohol/marijuana consumption, to eating fast food, to skydiving. OTC here is a result of politics specifically because access is being restricted or in the midst of being restricted. The reason this wasn't OTC was because there just wasn't a need to bother with it. Now there is. > I wouldn't be surprised if there was a, smallish, correlated increase in STDs, as well. This is really unsubstantiated and it would be nice if you didn't say things like this in the context of this conversation here unless you're going to provide a legitimate source. Even then if this were true I'm going to guess that an infinitesimal and unsubstantiated risk of higher STD rates is nothing compared to unwanted pregnancies from a public health standpoint.

tyre 3y ago

The FDA regulates both risks and efficacy. The efficacy of hormonal birth control plummets if not taken consistently, which for progestin-only pills (like this) includes the same time of day[0]. Talking to a doctor ensures that people really understand this. The downside of forgetting to take more advil in time is short-term pain. The downside of not understanding that your birth control isn't working is a child. As we've seen with patients stopping antibiotics early, even though they're prescription!, people make uninformed choices with medication. Depending on what it's for, there are more or less risks of making it OTC. All of that said, I agree that this has mostly been politics. [0]: https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/is-the-birth-control-pill-still-effective-if-you-take-it-two-hours-after-the-time-you-are-supposed-to-take-it https://www.plannedparenthood.org/blog/is-the-birth-control-...

a_wild_dandan 3y ago
Conversely, the downside of forgetting when you can take Tylenol is maybe needing an organ transplant or dying. Which...is 100% efficacy on pain reduction, I suppose. So hey, the OTC medicine gods giveth and taketh.
kodah 3y ago
> Talking to a doctor ensures that people really understand this. This seems antiquated at best. They could've approved some kind of app or process to streamline this. I'm sure it's not the only kind of medication this situation applies to.
cogman10 3y ago
I'm not sure the point you're making here. The potential danger of forgetting to use a condom or misusing one (like a condom that's too old) is also a child. Condoms are currently sold in truck stop bathrooms. I really see no distinction between a condom and a birth control pill. Even with misuse, making the pill more widely available will almost certainly be a social good. It will prevent more unwanted children.
- helipod12 3y ago
  Well you should, hormonal pills and latex are entirely different.

neuronerdgirl 3y ago

Good time to remind people that tylenol dosages as written on the bottle are just within the safety window to avoid toxicity[1]. Having done the math myself, you can't even take the extra strength stuff at the recommended timing without skipping a dose each day. Drugs, even OTC ones, have very real risks, and gatekeeping BC is laughable given the risks of not having it freely available. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/acetaminophen-safety-be-cautious-but-not-afraid https://www.health.harvard.edu/pain/acetaminophen-safety-be-...

travisjungroth 3y ago
Tylenol/paracetamol/acetaminophen also barely works. It increases the effectiveness of an aspirin and caffeine combo to relieve headaches (but not migraines). It’s generally ineffective against chronic pain, back pain, and severe pain. It’s a weak fever reducer. It’s one of the most popular medications in the world and its use isn’t especially supported by science. To the point of this thread, don’t mistake official policy for rational behavior.
- pyuser583 3y ago
  Could you give me some sources on acetaminophen effectiveness? I’m really interested in this.
  - travisjungroth 3y ago
    This article links to a bunch of studies: https://theconversation.com/whats-the-point-of-paracetamol-66808 https://theconversation.com/whats-the-point-of-paracetamol-6... Here’s an NIH meta analysis: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33786837/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33786837/ There are lots of studies out there, throw whatever symptom + acetaminophen effectiveness into Google for more. Just make sure that if a study is making a big deal about stat sig to check the actual treatment effect.
- cogman10 3y ago
  > It’s a weak fever reducer. Anecdotal, but acetaminophen has been my goto for fever reduction. I've never had a problem with it (and it's taken me from 103->98 fairly frequently). And, unlike most NSAIDs, it's safe(ish) for younger kids. That said, I've never really noticed the pain killing effects.