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In Turkey, you can cancel any subscription you have through the governments app called "e-Devlet" which stands for "e-Government". It is an awesome system, a se

In Turkey, you can cancel any subscription you have through the governments app called "e-Devlet" which stands for "e-Government". It is an awesome system, a service making it hell to unsubscribe? Just cancel it through e-Devlet and if they don't cancel your subscription, you can sue them. Though I think it only works for Turkey based companies, sadly.

ethbr0 3y ago
This seems like a great solution -- allow a centralized party to control the front end (and create an audit log), then transmit the intent to the service to act on. I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. But the ceding of front end control to services themselves doesn't work. We already learned that with email / unsubscribe.
- RGBCube 3y ago
  > I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. Hard, because the government has authority, a random company does not. I'd still trust my government more than a random non profit company, if my trust decreases, I'd vote for different people to manage the country - which is not possible with companies.
  - tantalor 3y ago
    You could run it like the Fed, independent from govt but still official.
    - kelipso 3y ago
      Why, so they can be shady and funnel profits to private hands?
    - RGBCube 3y ago
      Ah, then that would be the best solution.
  - pas 3y ago
    > I'd vote for different people to manage the country Also not possible in Turkey, but at least this service works.
  - gizmo686 3y ago
    The legal framework for a private company doing it is already there. At least in the US, you can always cancel with a properly worded certified letter to the company. You would probably need to give the company limited power of attorney to send the letter on your behalf. This isn't as crazy as it sounds, its essentially the same thing as title companies. You give them power of attorney and they deal with the DMV for you for things like transfering title of your car. Having said that, I don't think the market for painless cancelling is big enough to do this given the legal overhead that would be needed.
    - thinkmassive 3y ago
      DoNotPay.com has existed for a while
  - hayd 3y ago
    Does the government really need to know every subscription that every person in the county has? This seems like massive overreach/invasion of privacy.
    - lbschenkel 3y ago
      Even if that was the case: compared to the subscribing companies themselves selling not only that information, but also your personal data to the highest (and lowest) bidder?
    - RGBCube 3y ago
      Well, the government can access your bank logs, so I don't think them seeing you have a TV and internet subscription is an issue. It's a great benefit of having an authoritarian government.
      - Etherlord87 3y ago
        The government can access the bank logs, but it doesn't have an automatic channel to do so for everyone at once. Making it easier for the government to spy on its citizens definitely is an issue.
        dmonitor 3y ago
        I wouldn't mind such a service being opt-in for citizens but mandatory for companies to support.
      - hayd 3y ago
        Surely, in theory at least, they require a subpoena/warrant. Perhaps I am hopelessly naive.
        autoexec 3y ago
        They don't need a subpoena/warrant for data that the company chooses to sell the government. It's not your data, but data about you owned by the company. The government can ask a bank or netflix for all their customers data or even for an online portal that gives them unlimited access to whatever they need in exchange for cash and plenty of companies welcome the new revenue stream. (see for example https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-government-buys-data-americans-little-oversight-report-finds-rcna89035 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-government-buys-dat...) This isn't limited to the government buying up data either. Things like access to real-time GPS location has been for sale from every major mobile carrier
  - superq 3y ago
    With companies, it's even easier: just cancel. Even if (as with Netflix) it takes until the end of the month, at least I can just ditch them. Even if elections are fair and regularly scheduled, you're essentially firing and re-hiring an entirely new company administration every n years. This is incredibly inefficient and probably why most govt websites (in every democratic country?) are pretty bad compared to their private counterparts. And, there's no real incentive to improve, while with private companies, if you don't like them, you just stop paying for them. That profit motive (and threat of its loss) is very powerful - much more powerful than the "I'm helping my fellow citizen by engaging in civil service" (or, perhaps more likely, "I'm accruing power by running for public office"). That's why this "click to cancel" proposal is so important: it keeps companies from becoming embedded, like the incumbent govt that gets lazy and complacent, knowing that they'll never get voted out.
- hayd 3y ago
  You could do it without the need for centralised party. Banks could issue a cancel notice i.e. a webhook/something to poll that says "this card will no longer be honoring this subscription". That way users can cancel in our bank app... potentially right next to where we see the line item, and will have the protection of the bank being the one who does so (vs a user clicking something on their site).
- superq 3y ago
  This service already exists (not not-for-profit). It's called PayPal. It has its own problems, but it does make it easy to cancel recurring subscriptions (if you can find where to do so buried in its menus!)
- saxonww 3y ago
  I think if the government does it, they can leverage whatever they already have for identity verification. If it's a 3rd party NFP they have to deal with that, right? Either way, my initial reaction to this is great, now we can prank other people by canceling their subscriptions.
orangesquirrel 3y ago
[flagged]
- BiteCode_dev 3y ago
  Your comment is weird. OP comes up with an example of a possible solution, and you react like this is some kind of propaganda you have to fight. It comes out as needinglessly harsh, and you can do this with any country. I can make up a list of all the awful things about America. But that's just not the topic.
  - orangesquirrel 3y ago
    Ahh didn't mean to come across as needlessly harsh. I like the country BTW, and I conceded that this idea might be a good one. Most people are acutely familiar with many of the faults of America, and are probably less so with those of smaller governments. I think my comment was coming more from a "wow maybe they actually did something right with tech?" perspective than anything else, similarly to how I might react if Apple was lauded for making strides in right to repair or something like that, or Google was praised for protecting user privacy, and I hoped to provide some context that most people would lack. But if my comment was unhelpful or unfair then I apologize.
- deepburner 3y ago
  What is the point of this comment?
atahanacar 3y ago
For more context, prior to this, ISPs would force you to send them a cancellation notice over fax (which nobody has) if you wanted to cancel your subscription, even though they would come to your house to sign the contracts when first subscribing. There exists a law that states "cancellation can't be harder than subscription" and if you intend to cancel a subscription but an easier way is not provided, you aren't legally obligated to pay for the service anymore. Ask me how I know. Also, "you can sue them" in this context means "you can use e-Devlet to sue a company online, without having to leave your house". It goes straight to your local Consumer Court, who asks the company to send in their defense and then the Consumer Council gathers together to reach a verdict. This total process normally takes around 3 months and you have to do absolutely nothing once you send the official complaint online, but some companies like to delay this procedure just because they can, by sending in their defense the last day before the deadline.
- RGBCube 3y ago
  > Also, "you can sue them" in this context means "you can use e-Devlet to sue a company online, without having to leave your house". e-Devlet is awesome in this regard, I am still suprised lots of more developed countries don't have anything similar. It is like a swiss knife for healthcare, financial and legal services. The e-Devlet app is also pretty fast and the webpage does not suck. Though I wish the signup process was simpler, because you need to go to the nearest government post office to get an account. But I guess it is like that to prevent impersonation.
  - synetic 3y ago
    Having something this awesome in the U.S. would cut out so many billions of dollars of profit that there is zero chance of it ever being implemented in my lifetime. In the U.S. the purpose of government and regulations are to make it easier for entrenched companies to make a buck. Unfortunately for the citizenry just about all the low hanging fruit in terms of providing a government service to make lives easier and/or less costly have entrenched businesses siphoning money from people.
    - 3y ago
sbmthakur 3y ago
Interesting. Does e-Devlet also allow you to track your subscriptions and how much you have paid for them?
- RGBCube 3y ago
  No, as far as I remember, the cancelling process doesn't check if you are subbed because they don't have that data IIRC.

ethbr0 3y ago

This seems like a great solution -- allow a centralized party to control the front end (and create an audit log), then transmit the intent to the service to act on. I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. But the ceding of front end control to services themselves doesn't work. We already learned that with email / unsubscribe.

RGBCube 3y ago
> I'd prefer to see it as a non-government, not-for-profit service. Hard, because the government has authority, a random company does not. I'd still trust my government more than a random non profit company, if my trust decreases, I'd vote for different people to manage the country - which is not possible with companies.
- tantalor 3y ago
  You could run it like the Fed, independent from govt but still official.
  - kelipso 3y ago
    Why, so they can be shady and funnel profits to private hands?
  - RGBCube 3y ago
    Ah, then that would be the best solution.
- pas 3y ago
  > I'd vote for different people to manage the country Also not possible in Turkey, but at least this service works.
- gizmo686 3y ago
  The legal framework for a private company doing it is already there. At least in the US, you can always cancel with a properly worded certified letter to the company. You would probably need to give the company limited power of attorney to send the letter on your behalf. This isn't as crazy as it sounds, its essentially the same thing as title companies. You give them power of attorney and they deal with the DMV for you for things like transfering title of your car. Having said that, I don't think the market for painless cancelling is big enough to do this given the legal overhead that would be needed.
  - thinkmassive 3y ago
    DoNotPay.com has existed for a while
- hayd 3y ago
  Does the government really need to know every subscription that every person in the county has? This seems like massive overreach/invasion of privacy.
  - lbschenkel 3y ago
    Even if that was the case: compared to the subscribing companies themselves selling not only that information, but also your personal data to the highest (and lowest) bidder?
  - RGBCube 3y ago
    Well, the government can access your bank logs, so I don't think them seeing you have a TV and internet subscription is an issue. It's a great benefit of having an authoritarian government.
    - Etherlord87 3y ago
      The government can access the bank logs, but it doesn't have an automatic channel to do so for everyone at once. Making it easier for the government to spy on its citizens definitely is an issue.
      - dmonitor 3y ago
        I wouldn't mind such a service being opt-in for citizens but mandatory for companies to support.
    - hayd 3y ago
      Surely, in theory at least, they require a subpoena/warrant. Perhaps I am hopelessly naive.
      - autoexec 3y ago
        They don't need a subpoena/warrant for data that the company chooses to sell the government. It's not your data, but data about you owned by the company. The government can ask a bank or netflix for all their customers data or even for an online portal that gives them unlimited access to whatever they need in exchange for cash and plenty of companies welcome the new revenue stream. (see for example https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-government-buys-data-americans-little-oversight-report-finds-rcna89035 https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/us-government-buys-dat...) This isn't limited to the government buying up data either. Things like access to real-time GPS location has been for sale from every major mobile carrier
- superq 3y ago
  With companies, it's even easier: just cancel. Even if (as with Netflix) it takes until the end of the month, at least I can just ditch them. Even if elections are fair and regularly scheduled, you're essentially firing and re-hiring an entirely new company administration every n years. This is incredibly inefficient and probably why most govt websites (in every democratic country?) are pretty bad compared to their private counterparts. And, there's no real incentive to improve, while with private companies, if you don't like them, you just stop paying for them. That profit motive (and threat of its loss) is very powerful - much more powerful than the "I'm helping my fellow citizen by engaging in civil service" (or, perhaps more likely, "I'm accruing power by running for public office"). That's why this "click to cancel" proposal is so important: it keeps companies from becoming embedded, like the incumbent govt that gets lazy and complacent, knowing that they'll never get voted out.
hayd 3y ago
You could do it without the need for centralised party. Banks could issue a cancel notice i.e. a webhook/something to poll that says "this card will no longer be honoring this subscription". That way users can cancel in our bank app... potentially right next to where we see the line item, and will have the protection of the bank being the one who does so (vs a user clicking something on their site).
superq 3y ago
This service already exists (not not-for-profit). It's called PayPal. It has its own problems, but it does make it easy to cancel recurring subscriptions (if you can find where to do so buried in its menus!)
saxonww 3y ago
I think if the government does it, they can leverage whatever they already have for identity verification. If it's a 3rd party NFP they have to deal with that, right? Either way, my initial reaction to this is great, now we can prank other people by canceling their subscriptions.

orangesquirrel 3y ago

[flagged]

BiteCode_dev 3y ago
Your comment is weird. OP comes up with an example of a possible solution, and you react like this is some kind of propaganda you have to fight. It comes out as needinglessly harsh, and you can do this with any country. I can make up a list of all the awful things about America. But that's just not the topic.
- orangesquirrel 3y ago
  Ahh didn't mean to come across as needlessly harsh. I like the country BTW, and I conceded that this idea might be a good one. Most people are acutely familiar with many of the faults of America, and are probably less so with those of smaller governments. I think my comment was coming more from a "wow maybe they actually did something right with tech?" perspective than anything else, similarly to how I might react if Apple was lauded for making strides in right to repair or something like that, or Google was praised for protecting user privacy, and I hoped to provide some context that most people would lack. But if my comment was unhelpful or unfair then I apologize.
deepburner 3y ago
What is the point of this comment?

atahanacar 3y ago

For more context, prior to this, ISPs would force you to send them a cancellation notice over fax (which nobody has) if you wanted to cancel your subscription, even though they would come to your house to sign the contracts when first subscribing. There exists a law that states "cancellation can't be harder than subscription" and if you intend to cancel a subscription but an easier way is not provided, you aren't legally obligated to pay for the service anymore. Ask me how I know. Also, "you can sue them" in this context means "you can use e-Devlet to sue a company online, without having to leave your house". It goes straight to your local Consumer Court, who asks the company to send in their defense and then the Consumer Council gathers together to reach a verdict. This total process normally takes around 3 months and you have to do absolutely nothing once you send the official complaint online, but some companies like to delay this procedure just because they can, by sending in their defense the last day before the deadline.

RGBCube 3y ago
> Also, "you can sue them" in this context means "you can use e-Devlet to sue a company online, without having to leave your house". e-Devlet is awesome in this regard, I am still suprised lots of more developed countries don't have anything similar. It is like a swiss knife for healthcare, financial and legal services. The e-Devlet app is also pretty fast and the webpage does not suck. Though I wish the signup process was simpler, because you need to go to the nearest government post office to get an account. But I guess it is like that to prevent impersonation.
- synetic 3y ago
  Having something this awesome in the U.S. would cut out so many billions of dollars of profit that there is zero chance of it ever being implemented in my lifetime. In the U.S. the purpose of government and regulations are to make it easier for entrenched companies to make a buck. Unfortunately for the citizenry just about all the low hanging fruit in terms of providing a government service to make lives easier and/or less costly have entrenched businesses siphoning money from people.
  - 3y ago

sbmthakur 3y ago

Interesting. Does e-Devlet also allow you to track your subscriptions and how much you have paid for them?

RGBCube 3y ago
No, as far as I remember, the cancelling process doesn't check if you are subbed because they don't have that data IIRC.