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> the Irish Potato Famine and the much later famines in the Bengal regions were the result of misguided or malicious “capitalist” efforts by the British state a

> the Irish Potato Famine and the much later famines in the Bengal regions were the result of misguided or malicious “capitalist” efforts by the British state and empire to enforce who gets to eat. Interesting, tell me more about how the economic system in Britain caused the famine in Ireland.

EGreg 3y ago
Sure. The entire system that exacerbated the problem was of a thoroughly capitalist character. It revolved around the landlord class vs the poor tenants / sharecroppers, as well as exporting food at a time of famine (as did Bengal famine). You’d do well to start in the wikipedia article that I linked. Some quotes: Longer-term causes include the system of absentee landlordism[15][16] and single-crop dependence.[17][18] Initial limited but constructive government actions to alleviate famine distress were ended by a new Whig administration in London, which pursued a laissez-faire economic doctrine, in part because they believed the famine was due to lacking moral character,[19][20] and only resumed later. The refusal of London to bar export of food from Ireland during the famine was an immediate and continuing source of controversy, contributing to anti-British sentiment and the campaign for independence. Additionally, the famine indirectly resulted in tens of thousands of households being evicted, exacerbated by a provision forbidding access to workhouse aid while in possession of more than one-quarter acre of land. … Landlords and tenants Edit During the 18th century, the "middleman system" for managing landed property was introduced. Rent collection was left in the hands of the landlords' agents, or middlemen. This assured the landlord of a regular income and relieved them of direct responsibility while leaving tenants open to exploitation by the middlemen.[36] Catholics, the majority of whom lived in conditions of poverty and insecurity, made up 80% of the population. At the top of the "social pyramid" was the "ascendancy class", the English and Anglo-Irish families who owned most of the land and held more or less unchecked power over their tenants. Some of their estates were vast; for example, the Earl of Lucan owned more than 60,000 acres (240 km2). Many of these absentee landlords lived in England. The rent revenue—collected from "impoverished tenants" who were paid minimal wages to raise crops and livestock for export[15]—was mostly sent to England.[16] … The Commission stated that bad relations between landlord and tenant were principally responsible. There was no hereditary loyalty, feudal tie, or mitigating tradition of paternalism as existed in Britain, as the Anglo-Irish aristocracy that supplanted the Gaelic aristocracy in the 17th century was of a different religion and newer. In 1800, the 1st Earl of Clare observed of landlords that "confiscation is their common title".[39][40] According to the historian Cecil Woodham-Smith, landlords regarded the land as a source of income, from which as much as possible was to be extracted. With the peasantry "brooding over their discontent in sullen indignation" (in the words of the Earl of Clare), the landlords largely viewed the countryside as a hostile place in which to live. Some landlords visited their property only once or twice in a lifetime, if ever.[39] The rents from Ireland were generally spent elsewhere; an estimated £6,000,000 was remitted out of Ireland in 1842.[39][a] The ability of middlemen was measured by the rent income they could contrive to extract from tenants.[36] They were described in evidence before the commission as "land sharks", "bloodsuckers", and "the most oppressive species of tyrant that ever lent assistance to the destruction of a country".[36] The middlemen leased large tracts of land from the landlords on long leases with fixed rents, which they sublet as they saw fit. They would split a holding into smaller and smaller parcels so as to increase the amount of rent they could obtain. Tenants could be evicted for reasons such as non-payment of rents (which were high), or a landlord's decision to raise sheep instead of grain crops. A cottier paid his rent by working for the landlord while the spalpeen, an itinerant labourer, paid his short-term lease through temporary day work.[41][42] As any improvement made on a holding by a tenant became the property of the landlord when the lease expired or was terminated, the incentive to make improvements was limited. Most tenants had no security of tenure on the land; as tenants "at will", they could be turned out whenever the landlord chose. … Landlords in Ireland often used their powers without compunction, and tenants lived in dread of them. Woodham-Smith writes that, in these circumstances, "industry and enterprise were extinguished and a peasantry created which was one of the most destitute in Europe".[38] Tenants and subdivisions Edit See also: Irish farm subdivision A starving Irish family from Carraroe, County Galway, during the Great Famine (National Library of Ireland) The Popery Act (Penal Law) of 1704 required that when a tenant died, his land should be divided equally between his sons. Population growth, from about 2 million by 1700, to 8 million by the time of the Great Famine, led to increased division of holdings and a consequent reduction in their average size. By 1845, 24% of all Irish tenant farms were of 0.4–2 hectares (1–5 acres) in size, while 40% were of 2–6 hectares (5–15 acres). Holdings were so small that no crop other than potatoes would suffice to feed a family. Shortly before the famine, the British government reported that poverty was so widespread that one-third of all Irish small holdings could not support the tenant families after rent was paid; the families survived only by earnings as seasonal migrant labour in England and Scotland.[43]
walrus01 3y ago
English-based land owners of massive agricultural holdings in Ireland were literally exporting huge quantities of food from Ireland at the same time that people were starving.
- dingaling 3y ago
  There actually was a net shift from export to import. The problem was that the country lacked the infrastructure to prepare wheat and oats for human consumption. Even fish were traditionally used as fertiliser rather than as food. 1844 408,000 tonnes exported; 23,000 tonnes imported 1847 137,000 tonnes exported; 893,000 tonnes imported https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20228979.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-202289...
  - rocqua 3y ago
    Interesting, I had heard that Ireland was still exporting potatoes during the famine. The article you sent paints a more nuanced picture. Also, for other readers, the trade balance didn't just switch because of dropping exports, imports also rose significantly.
    - talideon 3y ago
      Not exporting potatoes, but just about everything else. Potatoes were just about the only crop Irish peasants produced that their landlords weren't interested in, and the only source of meat was pigs as pork and bacon weren't particularly popular in 19th century Britain, they can effectively live on anything, are good foragers, and do less damage than goats when foraging. Ireland was the UK's breadbasket and even to this day, the UK has a high dependency on Ireland as a source of food. That didn't stop during the Great Famine: Ireland was still producing immense amounts of food, but due to the Corn Laws and other trade restrictions placed on Ireland by the UK, there were very few mills to turn grain produced in Ireland or imported into something usable.
episode0x01 3y ago
I genuinely can't tell if you are being serious or not. Are you not familiar with Britain's and Ireland's "relationship"?
kubb 3y ago
Ireland got independence in 1921. The great famine was 1845−1849. The worst kind of ignorant is the smug one.
rocqua 3y ago
Ireland was a colony of Britain. The economic system of Britain was much more concerned with extracting value from its colony than it was in caring about the people in its colony.
- zo1 3y ago
  Sure but how did it benefit them to let their "crop" die of famine? Seems like a stupid thing to do, even if you don't care about the well being of your "stock".
  - rsynnott 3y ago
    Few things about the former British administration of Ireland (or indeed of Scotland, Wales, or Northern England; the UK has never gotten the hang of regions even in modern times - before it left the EU, 7 of the 10 poorest regions in Northern Europe were in the UK) would lead one to assume competence.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Potatoes were not the crop of the rich British landlords, they cared little for the Catholics who they regarded as breeding out of control. During the years prior to the famine the landlords pushed more and more people from the best lands for failure to pay rent, grew more grain, raised more sheep, shipped these back home to England and watched the Irish starve more and more as their population tripled(? IIRC - it grew by a lot).
defrost 3y ago
You've got a wealth of Irish history to catch up on it seems. https://youtu.be/yvKTG8pE_70?t=516 https://youtu.be/yvKTG8pE_70?t=516
- roschdal 3y ago
  Honestly, I thought the Irish potato famine was caused by a potato plague. That's all...
  - EGreg 3y ago
    Thus my comment. I am glad it can help people realize that people’s governments, economic systems and the way people organize through a crisis can play a huge role — to mitigate a major crop failure or to massively exacerbate problems.
  - StanislavPetrov 3y ago
    The vast majority of people who are woefully wrong about history (and current events) are being completely earnest about their beliefs.
    - ranko 3y ago
      W B Yeats, born in Dublin in 1865, put it like this: The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-comi...
      - EdwardDiego 3y ago
        And to add the complex icing to the complicated cake, Yeats was Anglo-Irish, from a family that had come over as part of William of Orange's forces during the 17th century Williamite vs. Jacobite war. (Technicality trivia - he was born in Sandymount, which wasn't part of Dublin until the 1930s)
        3y ago

EGreg 3y ago

Sure. The entire system that exacerbated the problem was of a thoroughly capitalist character. It revolved around the landlord class vs the poor tenants / sharecroppers, as well as exporting food at a time of famine (as did Bengal famine). You’d do well to start in the wikipedia article that I linked. Some quotes: Longer-term causes include the system of absentee landlordism[15][16] and single-crop dependence.[17][18] Initial limited but constructive government actions to alleviate famine distress were ended by a new Whig administration in London, which pursued a laissez-faire economic doctrine, in part because they believed the famine was due to lacking moral character,[19][20] and only resumed later. The refusal of London to bar export of food from Ireland during the famine was an immediate and continuing source of controversy, contributing to anti-British sentiment and the campaign for independence. Additionally, the famine indirectly resulted in tens of thousands of households being evicted, exacerbated by a provision forbidding access to workhouse aid while in possession of more than one-quarter acre of land. … Landlords and tenants Edit During the 18th century, the "middleman system" for managing landed property was introduced. Rent collection was left in the hands of the landlords' agents, or middlemen. This assured the landlord of a regular income and relieved them of direct responsibility while leaving tenants open to exploitation by the middlemen.[36] Catholics, the majority of whom lived in conditions of poverty and insecurity, made up 80% of the population. At the top of the "social pyramid" was the "ascendancy class", the English and Anglo-Irish families who owned most of the land and held more or less unchecked power over their tenants. Some of their estates were vast; for example, the Earl of Lucan owned more than 60,000 acres (240 km2). Many of these absentee landlords lived in England. The rent revenue—collected from "impoverished tenants" who were paid minimal wages to raise crops and livestock for export[15]—was mostly sent to England.[16] … The Commission stated that bad relations between landlord and tenant were principally responsible. There was no hereditary loyalty, feudal tie, or mitigating tradition of paternalism as existed in Britain, as the Anglo-Irish aristocracy that supplanted the Gaelic aristocracy in the 17th century was of a different religion and newer. In 1800, the 1st Earl of Clare observed of landlords that "confiscation is their common title".[39][40] According to the historian Cecil Woodham-Smith, landlords regarded the land as a source of income, from which as much as possible was to be extracted. With the peasantry "brooding over their discontent in sullen indignation" (in the words of the Earl of Clare), the landlords largely viewed the countryside as a hostile place in which to live. Some landlords visited their property only once or twice in a lifetime, if ever.[39] The rents from Ireland were generally spent elsewhere; an estimated £6,000,000 was remitted out of Ireland in 1842.[39][a] The ability of middlemen was measured by the rent income they could contrive to extract from tenants.[36] They were described in evidence before the commission as "land sharks", "bloodsuckers", and "the most oppressive species of tyrant that ever lent assistance to the destruction of a country".[36] The middlemen leased large tracts of land from the landlords on long leases with fixed rents, which they sublet as they saw fit. They would split a holding into smaller and smaller parcels so as to increase the amount of rent they could obtain. Tenants could be evicted for reasons such as non-payment of rents (which were high), or a landlord's decision to raise sheep instead of grain crops. A cottier paid his rent by working for the landlord while the spalpeen, an itinerant labourer, paid his short-term lease through temporary day work.[41][42] As any improvement made on a holding by a tenant became the property of the landlord when the lease expired or was terminated, the incentive to make improvements was limited. Most tenants had no security of tenure on the land; as tenants "at will", they could be turned out whenever the landlord chose. … Landlords in Ireland often used their powers without compunction, and tenants lived in dread of them. Woodham-Smith writes that, in these circumstances, "industry and enterprise were extinguished and a peasantry created which was one of the most destitute in Europe".[38] Tenants and subdivisions Edit See also: Irish farm subdivision A starving Irish family from Carraroe, County Galway, during the Great Famine (National Library of Ireland) The Popery Act (Penal Law) of 1704 required that when a tenant died, his land should be divided equally between his sons. Population growth, from about 2 million by 1700, to 8 million by the time of the Great Famine, led to increased division of holdings and a consequent reduction in their average size. By 1845, 24% of all Irish tenant farms were of 0.4–2 hectares (1–5 acres) in size, while 40% were of 2–6 hectares (5–15 acres). Holdings were so small that no crop other than potatoes would suffice to feed a family. Shortly before the famine, the British government reported that poverty was so widespread that one-third of all Irish small holdings could not support the tenant families after rent was paid; the families survived only by earnings as seasonal migrant labour in England and Scotland.[43]

walrus01 3y ago

English-based land owners of massive agricultural holdings in Ireland were literally exporting huge quantities of food from Ireland at the same time that people were starving.

dingaling 3y ago
There actually was a net shift from export to import. The problem was that the country lacked the infrastructure to prepare wheat and oats for human consumption. Even fish were traditionally used as fertiliser rather than as food. 1844 408,000 tonnes exported; 23,000 tonnes imported 1847 137,000 tonnes exported; 893,000 tonnes imported https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-20228979.html https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-202289...
- rocqua 3y ago
  Interesting, I had heard that Ireland was still exporting potatoes during the famine. The article you sent paints a more nuanced picture. Also, for other readers, the trade balance didn't just switch because of dropping exports, imports also rose significantly.
  - talideon 3y ago
    Not exporting potatoes, but just about everything else. Potatoes were just about the only crop Irish peasants produced that their landlords weren't interested in, and the only source of meat was pigs as pork and bacon weren't particularly popular in 19th century Britain, they can effectively live on anything, are good foragers, and do less damage than goats when foraging. Ireland was the UK's breadbasket and even to this day, the UK has a high dependency on Ireland as a source of food. That didn't stop during the Great Famine: Ireland was still producing immense amounts of food, but due to the Corn Laws and other trade restrictions placed on Ireland by the UK, there were very few mills to turn grain produced in Ireland or imported into something usable.

episode0x01 3y ago

I genuinely can't tell if you are being serious or not. Are you not familiar with Britain's and Ireland's "relationship"?

kubb 3y ago

Ireland got independence in 1921. The great famine was 1845−1849. The worst kind of ignorant is the smug one.

rocqua 3y ago

Ireland was a colony of Britain. The economic system of Britain was much more concerned with extracting value from its colony than it was in caring about the people in its colony.

zo1 3y ago
Sure but how did it benefit them to let their "crop" die of famine? Seems like a stupid thing to do, even if you don't care about the well being of your "stock".
- rsynnott 3y ago
  Few things about the former British administration of Ireland (or indeed of Scotland, Wales, or Northern England; the UK has never gotten the hang of regions even in modern times - before it left the EU, 7 of the 10 poorest regions in Northern Europe were in the UK) would lead one to assume competence.
- defrost 3y ago
  Potatoes were not the crop of the rich British landlords, they cared little for the Catholics who they regarded as breeding out of control. During the years prior to the famine the landlords pushed more and more people from the best lands for failure to pay rent, grew more grain, raised more sheep, shipped these back home to England and watched the Irish starve more and more as their population tripled(? IIRC - it grew by a lot).

defrost 3y ago

You've got a wealth of Irish history to catch up on it seems. https://youtu.be/yvKTG8pE_70?t=516 https://youtu.be/yvKTG8pE_70?t=516

roschdal 3y ago
Honestly, I thought the Irish potato famine was caused by a potato plague. That's all...
- EGreg 3y ago
  Thus my comment. I am glad it can help people realize that people’s governments, economic systems and the way people organize through a crisis can play a huge role — to mitigate a major crop failure or to massively exacerbate problems.
- StanislavPetrov 3y ago
  The vast majority of people who are woefully wrong about history (and current events) are being completely earnest about their beliefs.
  - ranko 3y ago
    W B Yeats, born in Dublin in 1865, put it like this: The best lack all conviction, while the worst Are full of passionate intensity https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-comi...
    - EdwardDiego 3y ago
      And to add the complex icing to the complicated cake, Yeats was Anglo-Irish, from a family that had come over as part of William of Orange's forces during the 17th century Williamite vs. Jacobite war. (Technicality trivia - he was born in Sandymount, which wasn't part of Dublin until the 1930s)
      - 3y ago