14 ms·

Dutch E-Bike startup VanMoof unable to pay the bills

Freak_NL 3y ago
> Ook de officiële VanMoof-app, waarmee eigenaren hun fiets van het slot kunnen halen, is niet voor alle klanten bereikbaar.¹ (The official VanMoof app, which bicycle owners use to unlock their bicycle, is not available to all customers either.) Yet another reminder that you'll never actually own something which depends on an app or the company behind it existing. For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum. 1: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-voor-fietsenmerk-vanmoof-a4169615 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-vo...
- 28304283409234 3y ago
  https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporter https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporte... "With this tool, we want to make sure everyone can use their VanMoof even after these servers become unreachable - preventing e-waste."
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    Good of someone to step in and provide that. It shouldn't take a third party though.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Like all self-mobile equipment, it should be self-contained, air gapped from the internet and not require a web connection to work. Doing that, even OTA updates become unnecessary. Goesbfor cars, and even more so for bicycles, e- or otherwise... What's next, connect with Googpe / Facebook to use the bathroom? Good ridance for VanMoof, if everything you have is hippster marketing, that's what will ultimately happen.
      - ilyt 3y ago
        We need more local IoT networks in general. There should never be a case for vast majority of devices to contact the internet. Just MQTT to local gateway and do logic there. And maybe some generalized service for keeping firmware updates.
        hef19898 3y ago
        I'll go even further: we do need a lot less IoT stuff, a lot as in none at all if possible. And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware.
        ilyt 3y ago
        Proliferation of "smart" is definitely also a problem, but I think bigger one is plain lack of standards for most common use cases so if any of the platforms is abandoned, tough luck, landfill. > And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware. Yes but you always want to have option open, bugs happen
- yourusername 3y ago
  >For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum. This is the perception many people have but they're actually a bit cheaper than the average ebike, starting at €2200 when you would expect to pay about €2500 for most ebikes.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    (€ works on HackerNews, HTML escapes don't.)
  - onehp 3y ago
    Prices have dropped quite considerably recently. You can now pick up an e-bike as cheaply as €500. Once you get out of the "budget" range I'd expect to be paying more like €1500 for an average one.
    - yourusername 3y ago
      Where can i pick up these €500 ebikes? I've never seen one under €900 and that is with absolute garbage parts. Once you have some decent parts on there they are quickly 2000+.
      - dreamcompiler 3y ago
        The Jetson Haze is $549 at Costco. I didn't buy one because it's too small for me to ride comfortably, and the battery is too small. Plus as an all-Chinese bike I'd want to read some long-term reliability reports before buying.
      - onehp 3y ago
        The cheapest here is around €500 (depending on exchange rates), with plenty under €1500. https://electroheads.com/collections/all-electric-bikes?filter.v.price.gte=&filter.v.price.lte=&sort_by=price-ascending https://electroheads.com/collections/all-electric-bikes?filt...
    - dreamcompiler 3y ago
      All the reasonably good ebikes I've checked recently are now several hundred dollars more expensive than a year ago. You can watch a year-old review on Youtube which mentions prices, then go to the company's website to see how the prices have increased.
- rightbyte 3y ago
  Seems that you need to connect to the servers to receive the key so if the lusers haven't done that yet, it is too late? We really need some electronic waste law for Internet of Shit devices that forces offline functionality or self hosted functionality. Edit: There seem to be a backup unlock method with the bell, but I guess it is not very convenient compared to the app or a good old key.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  It's insane how common they are in Seattle. They look super sleek but their specs aren't actually all that good. I ended up going with juiced instead for less than half the price because it's pretty much all easily maintainable parts you can source yourself if need be. Lectric is great for that too.
  - mcv 3y ago
    I also occasionally encounter one in Amsterdam (most Amsterdammers wouldn't want to be caught dead on a VanMoof), and I find them confusing and annoying. They make weird, confusing sounds, have some sort of whistle instead of a bell, and the riders seem to think they always have right of way and always go faster than other bikes. Or maybe I interpret their behaviour more aggressively than with other bikes because of the weird sounds they produce. (I don't think they're actually more aggressive than other cyclists in Amsterdam. I mean, that's a very high bar. They might even be more polite. And yet, they seem to have acquired that reputation.)
    - em500 3y ago
      I think that reputation is undeserved, ard there's a bit of resentment at play. They're seen as toys for the wealthy, as mMost Amsterdammers probably ride a 3rd or 4th hand beater bike worth less than €100. But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes).
      - mcv 3y ago
        Ah, but we're proud of our ratty 4th hand beater bikes. People do some creative stuff with them sometimes, and certainly when I was a student, you didn't want to be seen on some shiny new bike fresh from the shop. > But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes). Weirdly, I don't actually mind them that much. They're awful of course, but I don't see them as replacements for bikes, but as replacements for scooters/mopeds. And those are a lot more awful. So I rather see people on a fat e-bike than on a dirty fume spewing scooter.
    - 3y ago
- mcv 3y ago
  > In Amsterdam staan boze klanten voor de deur omdat ze hun fiets niet kunnen ophalen die ze voor reparatie naar VanMoof hadden gebracht. (Angry customers can't pick up the bikes that they'd brought in for repair.) This is particularly nasty. Not only do they lose access to repairs and other services (like unlocking), some people have already lost their entire bike. If the company isn't already bankrupt, it'd be nice if they could at least finish the repairs that are in progress, and return all the bikes to the customers (I hesitate to call them "owners"). Of course that's a problem that can occur with any bankrupt repair service. The designed lock-in making customers dependent on a bankruptable company for everything from repairs to unlocking their bike, is more unique to this business model, but it should be a big warning against these lock-in driven business models that make customers too dependent on a single company. It's of course tempting to trust and believe that companies never go bankrupt, but they do.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    That's just because the physical shop closed in the course of the bankruptcy proceedings, not because the bicycles were repossessed. If VanMoof does go tits-up, these bicycles will still belong to their owners. It sucks not to be able to get at them right now, but that will sort itself out.
    - fatfingerd 3y ago
      > that will sort itself out The court assigns an administrator who, if effective, will work with what there is.. The bikes many people get back may be worthless as many parts were apparently custom so there are no other shops to complete the unfinished repairs.
    - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      I read they closed the shop for the safety of the employees, because they had angry customers demanding their bike / money back.
    - WeylandYutani 3y ago
      As I understand it only official van Moof dealerships have the tools and parts to fix these bikes so even if they get them back they're screwed.
- deanc 3y ago
  It also boils down to the hardware of the bike itself. Most of the parts are proprietary and I explicitly didn’t buy one for this reason.
- rasz 3y ago
  This is pretty common. In New Zealand you cant charge EVs if you happen to have Android Google account created while in US, app refuses to install. We bought a 5 bar Leaf [NewZeroland] https://youtu.be/4aBYJps_5ek?t=176 https://youtu.be/4aBYJps_5ek?t=176
dirtyid 3y ago
Slick looking ebikes. Had one on my wish list before realizing probably can't get service outside of official depots. Bullet dodged. Any dumb ebikes with comparable design out there that can be serviced at local bike shop and doesn't look like steampunking components together?
- piva00 3y ago
  I believe all Canyon e-bikes are using broader industry parts (Bosch motors, common components like Shimano or Enviolo gears, etc.) without looking steampunked together. The design is not as sleek as the VanMoof ones but I do like the ones I saw in person so far.
  - dirtyid 3y ago
    Yeah city ebike looked pretty aggressive. Vanmoof also has pretty clean internal hub / belt drive options. It's just a very sleek package that no one else seems to be replicating.
- deepakg 3y ago
  People I know swear by: https://cowboy.com https://cowboy.com They send the service technician to you. Saw it first hand - the service person came in a van that had all the tools and replacement parts. Not sure if it is better cost wise for them than having a workshop. Also not sure how well it'll scale. I've also seen local shops help with minor repair (like seat change), but I doubt they'll be able to help with something more extensive with the drivetrain or battery. I never got a Vanmoof because the version I test rode (an older model from a couple of years ago) jerked/made a distinct noise when it'd switch gears. Also, don't have room to plug the whole bike somewhere. Detachable battery was a must have for me. Currently browsing more established bike brands here like Batavus and Gazelle. They are not as sleek, but are trying. I wonder if Vanmoof might have poisoned the well for smaller startups in this space. I'd definitely be wary of giving this kind of money to a non-established brand.
- hellweaver666 3y ago
  I drive an ebike by a German Company called Reise and Muller (https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/ https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/). For the electrics, it uses off the shelf parts from Bosch which means you can buy spares (batteries, motors, controller etc) online and install them yourself with relatively little fuss. The motor also has a bunch of unused power that you can unlock if you're ok with getting your hands dirty ;)
WJW 3y ago
A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company takes on loads of VC funding, scales up way beyond what is reasonable in expectation of future growth, then a single poor product launch leads to an acute cash crunch at the same time that renewed funding has dried up due to rising interest rates. It's a very traditional failure mode for overly ambitious people: after having a string of successes in the good times, they forget that there can also be bad times and so they take incredible risks because they cannot imagine failure anymore.
- the-dude 3y ago
  > A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company Tech company? I thought they were a fashion brand.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    "tech company" pretty much means "we take investor capital and have a mobile app or webpage" these days. Member WeWork?
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    They're both, just like Apple.
  - WJW 3y ago
    App-integrated electrical bikes sounds like technology to me. They also have/had a good branding effort going, but so does apple. I don't see why having a brand would disqualify them from being a tech company.
    - the-dude 3y ago
      Oh please. It has FSD? Otherwise maybe it can take a pulse reading through my butt? They are competing with bike manufacturers, which call themselves bike manufacturers and these manufacturers have been producing decent e-bikes for decades now. VanMoof is a fashion brand for hipsters. Always was.
Dwolb 3y ago
This is why “not invented here” syndrome can kill an organization: >one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up service >The first of these means it’s virtually impossible for anyone to repair a VanMoof bike themselves and reliability >The company has been facing a huge backlash for its models, not least because its bikes appear to be less than robust. take a huge hit. And for most teams, it’s really hard to get service and reliability correct out of the gate. Multiply it by your entire product with its own interdependencies and VanMoof’s fate is very probable.
- Tepix 3y ago
  I have been wondering why there business isn't successful despite them having good marketing. I guess that explains it.
- seagullriffic 3y ago
  > one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up The frame, certainly - it has integrated lights and I presume other electronics. I wonder though (and doubt that) about the other components, which are easily sourced and likely off the shelf. Designing a custom frame for a bicycle isn't uncommon or a bad idea. These bikes are also pretty common here in Europe and they do look good. They're popular, and recogniseable. The promise being an all-in-one system you barely have to maintain. That isn't a bad or unfair proposition. So it's a shame the company seems to have been badly run. The linked Reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/vanmoofbicycle/comments/14wexfl/la_service_hub_closed_down/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vanmoofbicycle/comments/14wexfl/la_... - particularly a habit of throwing things out rather than repairing them, and hiring inexperienced staff - might explain quite a bit of this. Mechanical products like these basically need one thing: high quality parts. A 1/10 record of returns for repair seems like it's the root.
- em500 3y ago
  True story. I got their original model X, which they offered as a limited issue in Europe. Near the end of the 2 year warranty period the controller broke (no power assistance at all), and the shop told me it was irreparable since the part was not manufactured anymore. Initially they thought it was just outside the warranty period, and wouldn't offer me any recourse except a store voucher for a few hundred euro. After I looked up the docs to proof it was (just) still within the warranty the were forced to offer me a replacement bike X3 model. Which I promptly sold, and I've been happy with my regular non-ebike ever since.
Traubenfuchs 3y ago
Both VanMoof and Cowboy offer very exciting hardware. I actually bought a cowboy bike a year ago and could reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Sadly it started "booting" on the second day and after some annoying support chatting back and forth ("please put the bike outside so it has mobile internet connection!") I returned it. Support chat partners changed multiple times per day for me, responses took a long time sometimes. Initial shipping times was also unacceptable and took months. They sold a lot more bikes than they had ready. Reddit forums are full of fed up people with buyers remorse. Generally, quality control is very lacking. Being at the mercy of a remote company 5 countries over that has no serious presence in your city to maintain/fix/ship your 3000€ bike is simply a terrible idea.
- tokai 3y ago
  >reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Hope that traffic police one day starts coming down hard on this.
  - Traubenfuchs 3y ago
    That app (Cowboy Unleashed it was I believe) has an instant hard reset button that should make it very difficult for police to prove anything. Yes, it felt incredibly dangerous to be on a relatively light ebike going, what was it, at least 40 kilometers (25 mph) per hour. It's probably good I didn't get a replacement and gave it back.
    - the-dude 3y ago
      The concern is not about you.
  - djaychela 3y ago
    I find it amazing that people are happy to ride with pretty much zero protection at speeds as fast as a small motorcycle would take you, where a proper helmet is mandatory and most sane people would be considering significant safety clothing, etc. Many years ago (I've been a motorcyclist since I was 16), I saw the result of falling off without safety gear. Even at 30 the results of human-tarmac contact is pretty horrible. Even faster and it doesn't bear thinking about.
labster 3y ago
How does the failure of VanMoof affect Clarus the dogcow?
paganel 3y ago
Manufacturing them in the Netherlands (at least that's what the photo in the article tells me) was probably a mistake long-term, I can't see a bike-making company staying afloat while paying Western-level salaries.
- midasz 3y ago
  Taiwan: https://www.supplychainmagazine.nl/vanmoof-haalt-128-miljoen-dollar-op-voor-productie-van-e-bikes https://www.supplychainmagazine.nl/vanmoof-haalt-128-miljoen...
- SomeRndName11 3y ago
  I like this kind of globalist thinking.
- agnokapathetic 3y ago
  They're essentially just doing light final assembly/packaging on Bafang ODM subassemblies.
discordance 3y ago
Took one out for a test spin in Tokyo a few months ago. Was a bit surprised about how big their retail presence is (a showroom between Omotesando and Harajuku… must be expensive). Although it looked good, I was also surprised by how jerky the peddle assist was as well as the non-removable battery. Expecting users to lug a big e-bike up into their tiny Japanese apartment to charge every day doesn’t sound great.
- darkteflon 3y ago
  Did you settle on an alternative? I’m in Tokyo too and it seems to be slim pickings outside of the ubiquitous electric mamacharis.
  - discordance 3y ago
    Can’t go wrong with a mamachari. Ubiquitous, reliable, removable battery and easily serviceable.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
junglistguy 3y ago
[dead]
jwr 3y ago
I owned a VanMoof bike several years ago. A normal bike, not an E-bike, and there were no "smart features" in it, fortunately. It was an OK bike. It looked great, I liked the integrated lights and the chain that hid in the frame was amazing (really practical if you lock your bike multiple times a day). When switching to an E-bike, I decided to go with a Batavus Quip extra cargo e-go, and the main reason was that it looked like a fairly standard bike built from reasonably standard components. Which meant easier servicing. It also has a "bottle-type" bosch battery, which means I can pick it up and charge at the office. I don't know why e-bike manufacturers assume that I have an electrical outlet available right where I park my bike. I looked at newer VanMoof models and they looked great, but I was increasingly worried about the "smart" features and becoming dependent on them — as it turns out, I was right.
- SauciestGNU 3y ago
  Wow batavus is still around? I've ridden their mopeds from the late 70s, and their road bikes from the same period, but I'd assumed they were defunct now.
nasir 3y ago
I participated in the fundraising campaign of Vanmoof a few years ago. They were the market leader with a strong brand and financials. Possibly I considered it as my safest and a no-brainer investment. Over the past few years I kept hearing there are issues with the bikes but I imagined such issues will be obviously addressed. Instead, they started expanding internationally (I read in comments they even had a presence in Japan!) while angry customers dealt with issues at home. Really disappointed and a big reminder to prioritise product quality over growth at all costs. Vanmoof's desire to prematurely dominate the market turned into a fatal loss for all parties involved.
- tannhaeuser 3y ago
  In my totally uneducated opinion, it seems like they lost the "fake it till you make it" race then. It could've worked by prioritizing hooking as many customers in the rapidly expanding e-bike market by looks and price, then deliver later on fresh investor's money, a strategy not unheard of in HN circles. But it's unclear what exactly the problem is - too many returns and/or failed parts or contraction of the e-bike market, or cheaper competition.
Daviey 3y ago
Sad, I was really tempted to buy this but the thing that held me back was that they could only offer 250W power output which is the ~EU limit. Sadly, only non-legal products are appealing to a significant part of the market.
- ilyt 3y ago
  Yeah, people really just want a small electric motorcycle but without fucking with getting actual license for it.
  - 0JzW 3y ago
    this is the worst in amsterdam where you see ebikes flying past at 45-50kph without a single care in the world who they might hit
    - zihotki 3y ago
      And usually without a helmet - in NL it's not obligatory to wear a helmet on a standard or basic electric bicycle. There is a lot of disscussion about this safety issue but I'm not aware of any plans to improve the situation
  - Daviey 3y ago
    Yeah, except I do have a motorcycle license. So, find me a road legal e-fucking 1000w bike, where I can get it registered, taxed and insured.
    - yourusername 3y ago
      It's called a electric scooter, they're about $1500-2500.
      - Daviey 3y ago
        Which is neither an eBike, nor legal in the UK and many parts of the EU. Other than that, perfect solution.

> Ook de officiële VanMoof-app, waarmee eigenaren hun fiets van het slot kunnen halen, is niet voor alle klanten bereikbaar.¹ (The official VanMoof app, which bicycle owners use to unlock their bicycle, is not available to all customers either.) Yet another reminder that you'll never actually own something which depends on an app or the company behind it existing. For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum. 1: https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-voor-fietsenmerk-vanmoof-a4169615 https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2023/07/12/uitstel-van-betaling-vo...

28304283409234 3y ago
https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporter https://github.com/grossartig/vanmoof-encryption-key-exporte... "With this tool, we want to make sure everyone can use their VanMoof even after these servers become unreachable - preventing e-waste."
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  Good of someone to step in and provide that. It shouldn't take a third party though.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Like all self-mobile equipment, it should be self-contained, air gapped from the internet and not require a web connection to work. Doing that, even OTA updates become unnecessary. Goesbfor cars, and even more so for bicycles, e- or otherwise... What's next, connect with Googpe / Facebook to use the bathroom? Good ridance for VanMoof, if everything you have is hippster marketing, that's what will ultimately happen.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      We need more local IoT networks in general. There should never be a case for vast majority of devices to contact the internet. Just MQTT to local gateway and do logic there. And maybe some generalized service for keeping firmware updates.
      - hef19898 3y ago
        I'll go even further: we do need a lot less IoT stuff, a lot as in none at all if possible. And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware.
        ilyt 3y ago
        Proliferation of "smart" is definitely also a problem, but I think bigger one is plain lack of standards for most common use cases so if any of the platforms is abandoned, tough luck, landfill. > And if something isn't connected to the internet, and working just fine within spec, you don't even need to update the firmware. Yes but you always want to have option open, bugs happen
yourusername 3y ago
>For context: VanMoof bicycles are pretty much on the premium side of the spectrum. This is the perception many people have but they're actually a bit cheaper than the average ebike, starting at €2200 when you would expect to pay about €2500 for most ebikes.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  (€ works on HackerNews, HTML escapes don't.)
- onehp 3y ago
  Prices have dropped quite considerably recently. You can now pick up an e-bike as cheaply as €500. Once you get out of the "budget" range I'd expect to be paying more like €1500 for an average one.
  - yourusername 3y ago
    Where can i pick up these €500 ebikes? I've never seen one under €900 and that is with absolute garbage parts. Once you have some decent parts on there they are quickly 2000+.
    - dreamcompiler 3y ago
      The Jetson Haze is $549 at Costco. I didn't buy one because it's too small for me to ride comfortably, and the battery is too small. Plus as an all-Chinese bike I'd want to read some long-term reliability reports before buying.
    - onehp 3y ago
      The cheapest here is around €500 (depending on exchange rates), with plenty under €1500. https://electroheads.com/collections/all-electric-bikes?filter.v.price.gte=&filter.v.price.lte=&sort_by=price-ascending https://electroheads.com/collections/all-electric-bikes?filt...
  - dreamcompiler 3y ago
    All the reasonably good ebikes I've checked recently are now several hundred dollars more expensive than a year ago. You can watch a year-old review on Youtube which mentions prices, then go to the company's website to see how the prices have increased.
rightbyte 3y ago
Seems that you need to connect to the servers to receive the key so if the lusers haven't done that yet, it is too late? We really need some electronic waste law for Internet of Shit devices that forces offline functionality or self hosted functionality. Edit: There seem to be a backup unlock method with the bell, but I guess it is not very convenient compared to the app or a good old key.
hughesjj 3y ago
It's insane how common they are in Seattle. They look super sleek but their specs aren't actually all that good. I ended up going with juiced instead for less than half the price because it's pretty much all easily maintainable parts you can source yourself if need be. Lectric is great for that too.
- mcv 3y ago
  I also occasionally encounter one in Amsterdam (most Amsterdammers wouldn't want to be caught dead on a VanMoof), and I find them confusing and annoying. They make weird, confusing sounds, have some sort of whistle instead of a bell, and the riders seem to think they always have right of way and always go faster than other bikes. Or maybe I interpret their behaviour more aggressively than with other bikes because of the weird sounds they produce. (I don't think they're actually more aggressive than other cyclists in Amsterdam. I mean, that's a very high bar. They might even be more polite. And yet, they seem to have acquired that reputation.)
  - em500 3y ago
    I think that reputation is undeserved, ard there's a bit of resentment at play. They're seen as toys for the wealthy, as mMost Amsterdammers probably ride a 3rd or 4th hand beater bike worth less than €100. But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes).
    - mcv 3y ago
      Ah, but we're proud of our ratty 4th hand beater bikes. People do some creative stuff with them sometimes, and certainly when I was a student, you didn't want to be seen on some shiny new bike fresh from the shop. > But it seems that the resentment is nowadays more a directed at fat-bikes (Rad Powerbike lookalikes). Weirdly, I don't actually mind them that much. They're awful of course, but I don't see them as replacements for bikes, but as replacements for scooters/mopeds. And those are a lot more awful. So I rather see people on a fat e-bike than on a dirty fume spewing scooter.
  - 3y ago
mcv 3y ago
> In Amsterdam staan boze klanten voor de deur omdat ze hun fiets niet kunnen ophalen die ze voor reparatie naar VanMoof hadden gebracht. (Angry customers can't pick up the bikes that they'd brought in for repair.) This is particularly nasty. Not only do they lose access to repairs and other services (like unlocking), some people have already lost their entire bike. If the company isn't already bankrupt, it'd be nice if they could at least finish the repairs that are in progress, and return all the bikes to the customers (I hesitate to call them "owners"). Of course that's a problem that can occur with any bankrupt repair service. The designed lock-in making customers dependent on a bankruptable company for everything from repairs to unlocking their bike, is more unique to this business model, but it should be a big warning against these lock-in driven business models that make customers too dependent on a single company. It's of course tempting to trust and believe that companies never go bankrupt, but they do.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  That's just because the physical shop closed in the course of the bankruptcy proceedings, not because the bicycles were repossessed. If VanMoof does go tits-up, these bicycles will still belong to their owners. It sucks not to be able to get at them right now, but that will sort itself out.
  - fatfingerd 3y ago
    > that will sort itself out The court assigns an administrator who, if effective, will work with what there is.. The bikes many people get back may be worthless as many parts were apparently custom so there are no other shops to complete the unfinished repairs.
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    I read they closed the shop for the safety of the employees, because they had angry customers demanding their bike / money back.
  - WeylandYutani 3y ago
    As I understand it only official van Moof dealerships have the tools and parts to fix these bikes so even if they get them back they're screwed.
deanc 3y ago
It also boils down to the hardware of the bike itself. Most of the parts are proprietary and I explicitly didn’t buy one for this reason.
rasz 3y ago
This is pretty common. In New Zealand you cant charge EVs if you happen to have Android Google account created while in US, app refuses to install. We bought a 5 bar Leaf [NewZeroland] https://youtu.be/4aBYJps_5ek?t=176 https://youtu.be/4aBYJps_5ek?t=176

dirtyid 3y ago

Slick looking ebikes. Had one on my wish list before realizing probably can't get service outside of official depots. Bullet dodged. Any dumb ebikes with comparable design out there that can be serviced at local bike shop and doesn't look like steampunking components together?

piva00 3y ago
I believe all Canyon e-bikes are using broader industry parts (Bosch motors, common components like Shimano or Enviolo gears, etc.) without looking steampunked together. The design is not as sleek as the VanMoof ones but I do like the ones I saw in person so far.
- dirtyid 3y ago
  Yeah city ebike looked pretty aggressive. Vanmoof also has pretty clean internal hub / belt drive options. It's just a very sleek package that no one else seems to be replicating.
deepakg 3y ago
People I know swear by: https://cowboy.com https://cowboy.com They send the service technician to you. Saw it first hand - the service person came in a van that had all the tools and replacement parts. Not sure if it is better cost wise for them than having a workshop. Also not sure how well it'll scale. I've also seen local shops help with minor repair (like seat change), but I doubt they'll be able to help with something more extensive with the drivetrain or battery. I never got a Vanmoof because the version I test rode (an older model from a couple of years ago) jerked/made a distinct noise when it'd switch gears. Also, don't have room to plug the whole bike somewhere. Detachable battery was a must have for me. Currently browsing more established bike brands here like Batavus and Gazelle. They are not as sleek, but are trying. I wonder if Vanmoof might have poisoned the well for smaller startups in this space. I'd definitely be wary of giving this kind of money to a non-established brand.
hellweaver666 3y ago
I drive an ebike by a German Company called Reise and Muller (https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/ https://www.r-m.de/en-en/bikes/). For the electrics, it uses off the shelf parts from Bosch which means you can buy spares (batteries, motors, controller etc) online and install them yourself with relatively little fuss. The motor also has a bunch of unused power that you can unlock if you're ok with getting your hands dirty ;)

WJW 3y ago

A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company takes on loads of VC funding, scales up way beyond what is reasonable in expectation of future growth, then a single poor product launch leads to an acute cash crunch at the same time that renewed funding has dried up due to rising interest rates. It's a very traditional failure mode for overly ambitious people: after having a string of successes in the good times, they forget that there can also be bad times and so they take incredible risks because they cannot imagine failure anymore.

the-dude 3y ago
> A pretty classic story: ambitious tech company Tech company? I thought they were a fashion brand.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  "tech company" pretty much means "we take investor capital and have a mobile app or webpage" these days. Member WeWork?
- midoridensha 3y ago
  They're both, just like Apple.
- WJW 3y ago
  App-integrated electrical bikes sounds like technology to me. They also have/had a good branding effort going, but so does apple. I don't see why having a brand would disqualify them from being a tech company.
  - the-dude 3y ago
    Oh please. It has FSD? Otherwise maybe it can take a pulse reading through my butt? They are competing with bike manufacturers, which call themselves bike manufacturers and these manufacturers have been producing decent e-bikes for decades now. VanMoof is a fashion brand for hipsters. Always was.

Dwolb 3y ago

This is why “not invented here” syndrome can kill an organization: >one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up service >The first of these means it’s virtually impossible for anyone to repair a VanMoof bike themselves and reliability >The company has been facing a huge backlash for its models, not least because its bikes appear to be less than robust. take a huge hit. And for most teams, it’s really hard to get service and reliability correct out of the gate. Multiply it by your entire product with its own interdependencies and VanMoof’s fate is very probable.

Tepix 3y ago
I have been wondering why there business isn't successful despite them having good marketing. I guess that explains it.
seagullriffic 3y ago
> one of the main issues with VanMoof’s bikes is that they are custom designed from the ground up The frame, certainly - it has integrated lights and I presume other electronics. I wonder though (and doubt that) about the other components, which are easily sourced and likely off the shelf. Designing a custom frame for a bicycle isn't uncommon or a bad idea. These bikes are also pretty common here in Europe and they do look good. They're popular, and recogniseable. The promise being an all-in-one system you barely have to maintain. That isn't a bad or unfair proposition. So it's a shame the company seems to have been badly run. The linked Reddit post - https://www.reddit.com/r/vanmoofbicycle/comments/14wexfl/la_service_hub_closed_down/ https://www.reddit.com/r/vanmoofbicycle/comments/14wexfl/la_... - particularly a habit of throwing things out rather than repairing them, and hiring inexperienced staff - might explain quite a bit of this. Mechanical products like these basically need one thing: high quality parts. A 1/10 record of returns for repair seems like it's the root.
em500 3y ago
True story. I got their original model X, which they offered as a limited issue in Europe. Near the end of the 2 year warranty period the controller broke (no power assistance at all), and the shop told me it was irreparable since the part was not manufactured anymore. Initially they thought it was just outside the warranty period, and wouldn't offer me any recourse except a store voucher for a few hundred euro. After I looked up the docs to proof it was (just) still within the warranty the were forced to offer me a replacement bike X3 model. Which I promptly sold, and I've been happy with my regular non-ebike ever since.

Traubenfuchs 3y ago

Both VanMoof and Cowboy offer very exciting hardware. I actually bought a cowboy bike a year ago and could reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Sadly it started "booting" on the second day and after some annoying support chatting back and forth ("please put the bike outside so it has mobile internet connection!") I returned it. Support chat partners changed multiple times per day for me, responses took a long time sometimes. Initial shipping times was also unacceptable and took months. They sold a lot more bikes than they had ready. Reddit forums are full of fed up people with buyers remorse. Generally, quality control is very lacking. Being at the mercy of a remote company 5 countries over that has no serious presence in your city to maintain/fix/ship your 3000€ bike is simply a terrible idea.

tokai 3y ago
>reach ludicrous speeds with the "unofficial" app to remove speed restrictions. It was a amazing! Hope that traffic police one day starts coming down hard on this.
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago
  That app (Cowboy Unleashed it was I believe) has an instant hard reset button that should make it very difficult for police to prove anything. Yes, it felt incredibly dangerous to be on a relatively light ebike going, what was it, at least 40 kilometers (25 mph) per hour. It's probably good I didn't get a replacement and gave it back.
  - the-dude 3y ago
    The concern is not about you.
- djaychela 3y ago
  I find it amazing that people are happy to ride with pretty much zero protection at speeds as fast as a small motorcycle would take you, where a proper helmet is mandatory and most sane people would be considering significant safety clothing, etc. Many years ago (I've been a motorcyclist since I was 16), I saw the result of falling off without safety gear. Even at 30 the results of human-tarmac contact is pretty horrible. Even faster and it doesn't bear thinking about.

labster 3y ago

How does the failure of VanMoof affect Clarus the dogcow?

paganel 3y ago

Manufacturing them in the Netherlands (at least that's what the photo in the article tells me) was probably a mistake long-term, I can't see a bike-making company staying afloat while paying Western-level salaries.

midasz 3y ago
Taiwan: https://www.supplychainmagazine.nl/vanmoof-haalt-128-miljoen-dollar-op-voor-productie-van-e-bikes https://www.supplychainmagazine.nl/vanmoof-haalt-128-miljoen...
SomeRndName11 3y ago
I like this kind of globalist thinking.
agnokapathetic 3y ago
They're essentially just doing light final assembly/packaging on Bafang ODM subassemblies.

discordance 3y ago

Took one out for a test spin in Tokyo a few months ago. Was a bit surprised about how big their retail presence is (a showroom between Omotesando and Harajuku… must be expensive). Although it looked good, I was also surprised by how jerky the peddle assist was as well as the non-removable battery. Expecting users to lug a big e-bike up into their tiny Japanese apartment to charge every day doesn’t sound great.

darkteflon 3y ago
Did you settle on an alternative? I’m in Tokyo too and it seems to be slim pickings outside of the ubiquitous electric mamacharis.
- discordance 3y ago
  Can’t go wrong with a mamachari. Ubiquitous, reliable, removable battery and easily serviceable.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

junglistguy 3y ago

[dead]

jwr 3y ago

I owned a VanMoof bike several years ago. A normal bike, not an E-bike, and there were no "smart features" in it, fortunately. It was an OK bike. It looked great, I liked the integrated lights and the chain that hid in the frame was amazing (really practical if you lock your bike multiple times a day). When switching to an E-bike, I decided to go with a Batavus Quip extra cargo e-go, and the main reason was that it looked like a fairly standard bike built from reasonably standard components. Which meant easier servicing. It also has a "bottle-type" bosch battery, which means I can pick it up and charge at the office. I don't know why e-bike manufacturers assume that I have an electrical outlet available right where I park my bike. I looked at newer VanMoof models and they looked great, but I was increasingly worried about the "smart" features and becoming dependent on them — as it turns out, I was right.

SauciestGNU 3y ago
Wow batavus is still around? I've ridden their mopeds from the late 70s, and their road bikes from the same period, but I'd assumed they were defunct now.

nasir 3y ago

I participated in the fundraising campaign of Vanmoof a few years ago. They were the market leader with a strong brand and financials. Possibly I considered it as my safest and a no-brainer investment. Over the past few years I kept hearing there are issues with the bikes but I imagined such issues will be obviously addressed. Instead, they started expanding internationally (I read in comments they even had a presence in Japan!) while angry customers dealt with issues at home. Really disappointed and a big reminder to prioritise product quality over growth at all costs. Vanmoof's desire to prematurely dominate the market turned into a fatal loss for all parties involved.

tannhaeuser 3y ago
In my totally uneducated opinion, it seems like they lost the "fake it till you make it" race then. It could've worked by prioritizing hooking as many customers in the rapidly expanding e-bike market by looks and price, then deliver later on fresh investor's money, a strategy not unheard of in HN circles. But it's unclear what exactly the problem is - too many returns and/or failed parts or contraction of the e-bike market, or cheaper competition.

Daviey 3y ago

Sad, I was really tempted to buy this but the thing that held me back was that they could only offer 250W power output which is the ~EU limit. Sadly, only non-legal products are appealing to a significant part of the market.

ilyt 3y ago
Yeah, people really just want a small electric motorcycle but without fucking with getting actual license for it.
- 0JzW 3y ago
  this is the worst in amsterdam where you see ebikes flying past at 45-50kph without a single care in the world who they might hit
  - zihotki 3y ago
    And usually without a helmet - in NL it's not obligatory to wear a helmet on a standard or basic electric bicycle. There is a lot of disscussion about this safety issue but I'm not aware of any plans to improve the situation
- Daviey 3y ago
  Yeah, except I do have a motorcycle license. So, find me a road legal e-fucking 1000w bike, where I can get it registered, taxed and insured.
  - yourusername 3y ago
    It's called a electric scooter, they're about $1500-2500.
    - Daviey 3y ago
      Which is neither an eBike, nor legal in the UK and many parts of the EU. Other than that, perfect solution.