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Another example is taking the Advanced Programming course and being exposed to monads without having done a ton of FP without monads. The “You could have inven

by sshine 3y ago

Another example is taking the Advanced Programming course and being exposed to monads without having done a ton of FP without monads. The “You could have invented monads, and maybe you already did” approach: monads do solve a problem, but if you’re presented with the solution before being exposed to the problem, you’d be like “This is magical, complicated, unnecessary. Why would I ever want the problem that this solves?”

cyrillite 3y ago
“Why would I ever want the problem that this solves?” is the best way I’ve seen that mood captured. Brilliantly put and vital context for teaching.
- sshine 3y ago
  Kubernetes is another good example. If you don't already have all the problems that Kubernetes solves and the complexity that goes with those problems, adding Kubernetes prematurely gives you problems you didn't have by introducing complexity you weren't (yet) subscribed to. A: "What the hell is a PersistentVolumeClaim? Why can't I just write to disk?" B: "But what if you don't have a disk at the edge? How does this scale?" A: "What edge?! What scale?! I have a disk!"
  - spoiler 3y ago
    Most developers I've worked with who were complaining again containerisation and kubernetes never had to deploy code or only had to deploy code to one or two manually set up VPSs. They'd usually always be the most vocal about how its too complex. Or how "we aren't Google"; yes precisely because we're not Google who can afford multiple DevOps departments is why this makes shit easier, since the loudmouths also never want to pick up the slack to get infra shit done. /rant The ones that have experience with devops tend to appreciate Kubernetes
    - sshine 3y ago
      I have about two years of experience with DevOps and Kubernetes. I manage my personal infrastructure with Terraform. I still prefer to keep services running with docker-compose when I can.
    - hu3 3y ago
      I get your point but something like this is good enough for a ton of projects: git pull && docker-compose restart
      - sshine 3y ago
        Or if you're super fancy: docker pull ghcr.io/NAMESPACE/IMAGE_NAME:latest docker-compose restart IMAGE_NAME
      - xyzzy4747 3y ago
        This also works pretty well: ssh <server> cd <directory> git pull tsc pm2 restart all
        8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
        Or rsync && ln -sfn No restart or compile because php don't care.
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
    PV vs PVC still confuses me. And I still don't know/care about edge computing. I mostly wanted infra as code and multiple copies of my app running for resilience. And easy upgrading software versions. And matching dev envs.
- bobbiechen 3y ago
  Related: "If math is the aspirin, how do you create the headache?" https://blog.mrmeyer.com/2015/if-math-is-the-aspirin-then-how-do-you-create-the-headache/ https://blog.mrmeyer.com/2015/if-math-is-the-aspirin-then-ho... I think this is also why I didn't see the point of the design patterns book.
vishnugupta 3y ago
> Why would I ever want the problem that this solves? This frustrates me a lot when I see our current education system, from the kindergarten to post-grad. For instance my 6th grader son's book introduces LCM/HCF out of the blue, something like "this is LCM and here's how you calculate it". Not a single motivating example. Or take design-patterns. I learnt about two dozen of them in college and promptly forgot them within a week. I finally begin to appreciate them after encountering problems at work. Imagine if carpentry is taught by asking pupils to cram about 150 tools over 3 years. Or they start out by saying "Let's build a chair" and discover the need for one tool at a time and mastering them as they go along. They will also learn that they should look for a tool should they encounter a new kind of task.
thesnide 3y ago
That is exactly why I like to learn and teach things in chronological order. Why study long-obsolete tech? Because it helps you better understand why the current tech is what it is, and it even makes one think about possible alternatives, which in turn foster innovation much more than merely religiously learning current technology.

by sshine 3y ago

cyrillite 3y ago

“Why would I ever want the problem that this solves?” is the best way I’ve seen that mood captured. Brilliantly put and vital context for teaching.

sshine 3y ago
Kubernetes is another good example. If you don't already have all the problems that Kubernetes solves and the complexity that goes with those problems, adding Kubernetes prematurely gives you problems you didn't have by introducing complexity you weren't (yet) subscribed to. A: "What the hell is a PersistentVolumeClaim? Why can't I just write to disk?" B: "But what if you don't have a disk at the edge? How does this scale?" A: "What edge?! What scale?! I have a disk!"
- spoiler 3y ago
  Most developers I've worked with who were complaining again containerisation and kubernetes never had to deploy code or only had to deploy code to one or two manually set up VPSs. They'd usually always be the most vocal about how its too complex. Or how "we aren't Google"; yes precisely because we're not Google who can afford multiple DevOps departments is why this makes shit easier, since the loudmouths also never want to pick up the slack to get infra shit done. /rant The ones that have experience with devops tend to appreciate Kubernetes
  - sshine 3y ago
    I have about two years of experience with DevOps and Kubernetes. I manage my personal infrastructure with Terraform. I still prefer to keep services running with docker-compose when I can.
  - hu3 3y ago
    I get your point but something like this is good enough for a ton of projects: git pull && docker-compose restart
    - sshine 3y ago
      Or if you're super fancy: docker pull ghcr.io/NAMESPACE/IMAGE_NAME:latest docker-compose restart IMAGE_NAME
    - xyzzy4747 3y ago
      This also works pretty well: ssh <server> cd <directory> git pull tsc pm2 restart all
      - 8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
        Or rsync && ln -sfn No restart or compile because php don't care.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 3y ago
  PV vs PVC still confuses me. And I still don't know/care about edge computing. I mostly wanted infra as code and multiple copies of my app running for resilience. And easy upgrading software versions. And matching dev envs.
bobbiechen 3y ago
Related: "If math is the aspirin, how do you create the headache?" https://blog.mrmeyer.com/2015/if-math-is-the-aspirin-then-how-do-you-create-the-headache/ https://blog.mrmeyer.com/2015/if-math-is-the-aspirin-then-ho... I think this is also why I didn't see the point of the design patterns book.

vishnugupta 3y ago

> Why would I ever want the problem that this solves? This frustrates me a lot when I see our current education system, from the kindergarten to post-grad. For instance my 6th grader son's book introduces LCM/HCF out of the blue, something like "this is LCM and here's how you calculate it". Not a single motivating example. Or take design-patterns. I learnt about two dozen of them in college and promptly forgot them within a week. I finally begin to appreciate them after encountering problems at work. Imagine if carpentry is taught by asking pupils to cram about 150 tools over 3 years. Or they start out by saying "Let's build a chair" and discover the need for one tool at a time and mastering them as they go along. They will also learn that they should look for a tool should they encounter a new kind of task.

thesnide 3y ago

That is exactly why I like to learn and teach things in chronological order. Why study long-obsolete tech? Because it helps you better understand why the current tech is what it is, and it even makes one think about possible alternatives, which in turn foster innovation much more than merely religiously learning current technology.