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Because when I think of what I need in an email client, I think "beautiful" not "functional". It's a tool not a work of art. I use it to get work done not stare

Because when I think of what I need in an email client, I think "beautiful" not "functional". It's a tool not a work of art. I use it to get work done not stare at it in awe. UX people have killed application software. I need basic tools to work, not make me excited to use them. When I pick up a screwdriver, I don't do it for the experience. Ugh. You know what's a beautiful email client to me? Netscape Communicator 4.x

plibither8 3y ago
I think that's an exceptionally reductive and cynical take, without providing any real reasons for the hate, or how this update will reduce your usability of the application.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  Tangibly, "beautiful" UX is code for "rounded corners and lots of useless buffer space in between the informative elements". This is visible in the screenshots in the link. Things are further apart, less dense, and therefore more "beautiful". I agree that OP's take is reductive and cynical. I would add that in this case, as in essentially every other case where this is done, it is also accurate.
- ticviking 3y ago
  The guys down at the shop aren't talkin about how pretty the snap on tools are. Make it work. Make it easy to work with. Then make it pretty.
  - itishappy 3y ago
    > The guys down at the shop aren't talkin about how pretty the snap on tools are. Got a new diamond turning lathe in the machine shop about a month ago, whew lad. Warehouse got a vertical stacker and started giving tours, lol. Our glass shop keeps the MRF machine so clean the repair techs claim we must not use it. > Make it work. Make it easy to work with. Then make it pretty. Any specific usability issues in mind about this 19 year old email client?
- Karunamon 3y ago
  I think people are allowed to say they dislike the design of something without providing a academic thesis as to their reasoning. Here is a big one for me though: the war on information density by UX designers Have a look at the side by side comparison: https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/115.0/whatsnew/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/115.0/whatsnew... Give me the one on the right every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It looks like a professional application, a tool for getting work done. The one on the left looks like a toy website for newbies (or worse: Outlook). I have a 32 inch 4K display and most of the designers seem to think most of that space should be filled by useless dead space and massive buttons like this is Windows 95 and the average user needs the "start" affordance (now tarted up with eye-catching bright colors!) to know what to click on. Apparently my head is expected to literally explode if I ever see two distinct lines of information separated by less than two line breaks. This kind of infantalizing of the UI for can be defended in some contexts but here, it demonstrates that the designers do not know their target audience. This isn't the dial-up days, grandma doesn't read her mail on Outlook Express or any other local client, she uses a website like everybody else. The only people using actual local clients in 2023 are in enterprise (Outlook…) or are power users who want features they can't get on the web.
  - housemusicfan 3y ago
    > Give me the one on the right every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This is such an apropos example because the left-right windshield wiper widget to switch between the two screenshots referenced, ostensibly to give me a "beautiful" "experience" because two static thumbnails is for squares, is unusable and borderline broken.
  - pseudalopex 3y ago
    No one asked for a thesis. This was not part of the war on information density. The 3 column layout was requested often. It is optional. It can show more messages and more of the message on common screens. Professionals do not use 32 inch 4K displays only. Sender above subject is faster to skim in my experience. Not to you maybe. You can use the old layout. I dislike the blue new message button. Probably CSS can fix it.
- laputan_machine 3y ago
  Completely disagree. I want something that works, and works well. UX is not about being pretty, it's about being functional. That isn't what (most) UX designers do these days, it's all about fancy animations
  - abenga 3y ago
    There is nothing about looking good that precludes being useful.
djbusby 3y ago
Pegasus Mail on DOS was my favorite. I would like to get back to something like that. Fast, focused. Could even have "templates" (if you copy a draft)
- vogon_laureate 3y ago
  Obi-Wan Voice: "Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time... a long time."
- lucb1e 3y ago
  > Could even have "templates" Thunderbird apparently also: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Message_templates http://kb.mozillazine.org/Message_templates
- guestbest 3y ago
  Sure, but who’s got 2 MB of disk space and 520k of free RAM? I’m not rich.
corndoge 3y ago
Beautiful and functional are not mutually exclusive. What specifically about this update creates a lack of function for you?
sudobash1 3y ago
I agree in as much as I prioritize functionality (including responsiveness and lack of bloat) well above a beautiful UI. But I think that most peoples beef with UI/UX is that it often gets implemented at the expense of functionality. Any UX that decreases functionality is not truly good UX. It is probably just flashy. Also, personally, I don't entirely agree with your screwdriver metaphor. I have some beautiful old screwdrivers with lovely wood handles that I got as hand-me-downs. I do select them in favor of others for the experience. They are a delight for me to use (but again, most importantly, they are very functional). Edit: Also, they claim in the title that this is a faster Thunderbird. I would consider that a big plus for functionality.
Xeronate 3y ago
Horrible take. The aesthetics and user experience of an app has a direct correlation to whether the average user (which includes me, a programmer at Amazon) will use a tool.
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  > Horrible take. The aesthetics and user experience of an app has a direct correlation to whether the average user (which includes me, a programmer at Amazon) will use a tool. I've stopped using Amazon Music because the UI/UX is unusable. I've cancelled Prime and shifted my shopping to other properties such as Walmart because the continual user-hostile UI changes have pushed me away as a customer. Example, now making it impossible to filter by Amazon.com as the seller so my searches are inundated by screens full of all-caps Chinese counterfeit shit, now with infinite scroll! Accessing customer service entails more and more dark patterns by the day, and arguing with AI chat bots because I can't even get a human into chat anymore. As long as you're proud of your descent into a knockoff AliExpress, I support your efforts. The important distinction here is these applications were all fine, before the UX gods got involved in "beautifying" them to the point they became unusable.
  - luuurker 3y ago
    You're replying to someone that works at Amazon, not to Amazon itself. You also have no idea if they work for the shopping part of Amazon or Amazon Web Services, which is a completely different thing. On top of this, half of your complaints have nothing to do with UIs. As if UI designers are to blame for AI chat bots and chinese counterfeits.
zhte415 3y ago
When picking up a pair of scissors, I do care if they're designed for right or left handed. And the handle, of the scissors or screwdriver, is it comfortable and durable? Screwdriver makers have long known not to make the handle of smooth metal. Is the screwdriver magnetic? Does it have swappable heads? Are the swappable heads reversible plug in and out, are they themselves reversible, giving me two cross and two straight heads in one robust non conducting, rubberised, shock absorbing screwdriver package? If mgnetic, how magnetic?
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  You've described ergonomics pretty well, but the trend of modern UX design is more akin to replacing the screwdriver handle with a hot pink veiny dildo, self-declaring it beautiful, and vehemently decrying any criticism to why these changes are unnecessary.
rhaway84773 3y ago
I guess you also prefer slower software which is why you ignored the first adjective in the heading, “Fastest”. Or maybe you simply enjoy the thrill of ranting for no reason.
- Narishma 3y ago
  Just because their marketing says it's the fastest doesn't make it so.
johnea 3y ago
housemusicfan you have been downvoted. Welcome to the bottom of the comments section. I hang out here a lot. After using TB for about 20 years, I have a few very well curated opinions. But those, like yours will not be seen on HN...
- luuurker 3y ago
  Of course they've been downvoted. An app doesn't have to look like shit for it to be functional. It can be both. If they think it needs to look like Netscape Navigator to be functional, then at least they should understand that they're a minority. Most apps are trying to serve most users, not the small group that prefers the Windows 95 style or a command line client. The comment itself isn't very useful. Users of this site are not even the most supportive of modern UIs and will praise HN's look (and the old reddit UI), but what's exactly housemusicfan's problem with the new Thunderbird UI? What was made worse? It comes off as an "old man yells at cloud" type of comment and that won't gather much support.
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  The HN Brahmins are free to use this as evidence that their world view is superior, but my post sat at +8 before suddenly dropping to -4 in the span of a few minutes. So my assessment is the overall opinion is far more balanced, but the echo chamber always prevails, and it's much more difficult to dig yourself out of the hole once you've been buried within. I do not treat post score as a popularity contest or validation that an opinion is correct (or not). The sad truth is this industry is full of thin skinned prima donnas who love nothing more than "educating" their customers on what's best for them, whilst continually performing them a disservice in the form of UX "improvements" that literally no one asked for.

plibither8 3y ago

I think that's an exceptionally reductive and cynical take, without providing any real reasons for the hate, or how this update will reduce your usability of the application.

margalabargala 3y ago
Tangibly, "beautiful" UX is code for "rounded corners and lots of useless buffer space in between the informative elements". This is visible in the screenshots in the link. Things are further apart, less dense, and therefore more "beautiful". I agree that OP's take is reductive and cynical. I would add that in this case, as in essentially every other case where this is done, it is also accurate.
ticviking 3y ago
The guys down at the shop aren't talkin about how pretty the snap on tools are. Make it work. Make it easy to work with. Then make it pretty.
- itishappy 3y ago
  > The guys down at the shop aren't talkin about how pretty the snap on tools are. Got a new diamond turning lathe in the machine shop about a month ago, whew lad. Warehouse got a vertical stacker and started giving tours, lol. Our glass shop keeps the MRF machine so clean the repair techs claim we must not use it. > Make it work. Make it easy to work with. Then make it pretty. Any specific usability issues in mind about this 19 year old email client?
Karunamon 3y ago
I think people are allowed to say they dislike the design of something without providing a academic thesis as to their reasoning. Here is a big one for me though: the war on information density by UX designers Have a look at the side by side comparison: https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/115.0/whatsnew/ https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/thunderbird/115.0/whatsnew... Give me the one on the right every day of the week and twice on Sunday. It looks like a professional application, a tool for getting work done. The one on the left looks like a toy website for newbies (or worse: Outlook). I have a 32 inch 4K display and most of the designers seem to think most of that space should be filled by useless dead space and massive buttons like this is Windows 95 and the average user needs the "start" affordance (now tarted up with eye-catching bright colors!) to know what to click on. Apparently my head is expected to literally explode if I ever see two distinct lines of information separated by less than two line breaks. This kind of infantalizing of the UI for can be defended in some contexts but here, it demonstrates that the designers do not know their target audience. This isn't the dial-up days, grandma doesn't read her mail on Outlook Express or any other local client, she uses a website like everybody else. The only people using actual local clients in 2023 are in enterprise (Outlook…) or are power users who want features they can't get on the web.
- housemusicfan 3y ago
  > Give me the one on the right every day of the week and twice on Sunday. This is such an apropos example because the left-right windshield wiper widget to switch between the two screenshots referenced, ostensibly to give me a "beautiful" "experience" because two static thumbnails is for squares, is unusable and borderline broken.
- pseudalopex 3y ago
  No one asked for a thesis. This was not part of the war on information density. The 3 column layout was requested often. It is optional. It can show more messages and more of the message on common screens. Professionals do not use 32 inch 4K displays only. Sender above subject is faster to skim in my experience. Not to you maybe. You can use the old layout. I dislike the blue new message button. Probably CSS can fix it.
laputan_machine 3y ago
Completely disagree. I want something that works, and works well. UX is not about being pretty, it's about being functional. That isn't what (most) UX designers do these days, it's all about fancy animations
- abenga 3y ago
  There is nothing about looking good that precludes being useful.

djbusby 3y ago

Pegasus Mail on DOS was my favorite. I would like to get back to something like that. Fast, focused. Could even have "templates" (if you copy a draft)

vogon_laureate 3y ago
Obi-Wan Voice: "Now that's a name I haven't heard in a long time... a long time."
lucb1e 3y ago
> Could even have "templates" Thunderbird apparently also: http://kb.mozillazine.org/Message_templates http://kb.mozillazine.org/Message_templates
guestbest 3y ago
Sure, but who’s got 2 MB of disk space and 520k of free RAM? I’m not rich.

corndoge 3y ago

Beautiful and functional are not mutually exclusive. What specifically about this update creates a lack of function for you?

sudobash1 3y ago

I agree in as much as I prioritize functionality (including responsiveness and lack of bloat) well above a beautiful UI. But I think that most peoples beef with UI/UX is that it often gets implemented at the expense of functionality. Any UX that decreases functionality is not truly good UX. It is probably just flashy. Also, personally, I don't entirely agree with your screwdriver metaphor. I have some beautiful old screwdrivers with lovely wood handles that I got as hand-me-downs. I do select them in favor of others for the experience. They are a delight for me to use (but again, most importantly, they are very functional). Edit: Also, they claim in the title that this is a faster Thunderbird. I would consider that a big plus for functionality.

Xeronate 3y ago

Horrible take. The aesthetics and user experience of an app has a direct correlation to whether the average user (which includes me, a programmer at Amazon) will use a tool.

housemusicfan 3y ago
> Horrible take. The aesthetics and user experience of an app has a direct correlation to whether the average user (which includes me, a programmer at Amazon) will use a tool. I've stopped using Amazon Music because the UI/UX is unusable. I've cancelled Prime and shifted my shopping to other properties such as Walmart because the continual user-hostile UI changes have pushed me away as a customer. Example, now making it impossible to filter by Amazon.com as the seller so my searches are inundated by screens full of all-caps Chinese counterfeit shit, now with infinite scroll! Accessing customer service entails more and more dark patterns by the day, and arguing with AI chat bots because I can't even get a human into chat anymore. As long as you're proud of your descent into a knockoff AliExpress, I support your efforts. The important distinction here is these applications were all fine, before the UX gods got involved in "beautifying" them to the point they became unusable.
- luuurker 3y ago
  You're replying to someone that works at Amazon, not to Amazon itself. You also have no idea if they work for the shopping part of Amazon or Amazon Web Services, which is a completely different thing. On top of this, half of your complaints have nothing to do with UIs. As if UI designers are to blame for AI chat bots and chinese counterfeits.

zhte415 3y ago

When picking up a pair of scissors, I do care if they're designed for right or left handed. And the handle, of the scissors or screwdriver, is it comfortable and durable? Screwdriver makers have long known not to make the handle of smooth metal. Is the screwdriver magnetic? Does it have swappable heads? Are the swappable heads reversible plug in and out, are they themselves reversible, giving me two cross and two straight heads in one robust non conducting, rubberised, shock absorbing screwdriver package? If mgnetic, how magnetic?

housemusicfan 3y ago
You've described ergonomics pretty well, but the trend of modern UX design is more akin to replacing the screwdriver handle with a hot pink veiny dildo, self-declaring it beautiful, and vehemently decrying any criticism to why these changes are unnecessary.

rhaway84773 3y ago

I guess you also prefer slower software which is why you ignored the first adjective in the heading, “Fastest”. Or maybe you simply enjoy the thrill of ranting for no reason.

Narishma 3y ago
Just because their marketing says it's the fastest doesn't make it so.

johnea 3y ago

housemusicfan you have been downvoted. Welcome to the bottom of the comments section. I hang out here a lot. After using TB for about 20 years, I have a few very well curated opinions. But those, like yours will not be seen on HN...

luuurker 3y ago
Of course they've been downvoted. An app doesn't have to look like shit for it to be functional. It can be both. If they think it needs to look like Netscape Navigator to be functional, then at least they should understand that they're a minority. Most apps are trying to serve most users, not the small group that prefers the Windows 95 style or a command line client. The comment itself isn't very useful. Users of this site are not even the most supportive of modern UIs and will praise HN's look (and the old reddit UI), but what's exactly housemusicfan's problem with the new Thunderbird UI? What was made worse? It comes off as an "old man yells at cloud" type of comment and that won't gather much support.
housemusicfan 3y ago
The HN Brahmins are free to use this as evidence that their world view is superior, but my post sat at +8 before suddenly dropping to -4 in the span of a few minutes. So my assessment is the overall opinion is far more balanced, but the echo chamber always prevails, and it's much more difficult to dig yourself out of the hole once you've been buried within. I do not treat post score as a popularity contest or validation that an opinion is correct (or not). The sad truth is this industry is full of thin skinned prima donnas who love nothing more than "educating" their customers on what's best for them, whilst continually performing them a disservice in the form of UX "improvements" that literally no one asked for.