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Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice a

by mrtksn 3y ago

Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk happened, Turkey was formed as a nation with western ideals. Also, an old hat factory which was used as a market is not something islamic. The mayor wasn't paddling any western values to islamists, the mayor was elected by the popular vote and he is still very popular. He does what the electorate demands and significant portion of the electorate demands art galleries. I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Are you taking any red pills by any chance? Anyway, don't form your opinions from James Bond movies.

goodbyesf 3y ago
> Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation? > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain. > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. 'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'. > I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks. > it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist? I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  You really need to stop speaking about stuff you don’t know. Opinions are fine but factual problems like chronology are not forgivable. You will be surprised that the westernization of the society was something that started as a political movement during the Ottoman empire and if you check the numbers, you will see that the empire was long gone before the World War II. That’s why I don’t think that you deserve any serious answer because you are off completely. It’s like you claiming that the French Revolution happened because the French listened too much Rolling Stones. In case you decided to check out the history of Turkey, you also need to stop thinking about the Turkish society in American cultural war therms if you like to understand what is going on in Turkey. Or maybe you are Turkish nationalist who believes in the mythology. Then yes, this would be a touchy subject to you because it is hurting your nationalist pride. You should hold nationalist pride parades. Or even worse, are you believer of the AKP's alternative history where the Ottomans were the pinnacle of science&technology, Abdulhamit was a hero and Ataturk was a British spy? In that case, you should watch less series on the governments TV channels.
- _v7gu 3y ago
  Imagine arguing against a person with a clearly Turkish handle about who knows Turkey better. Also funny you say "western values" only started existing post-ww2 when Turkish national anthem very explicitly contains digs against it.
- ax0ar 3y ago
  You do have a good grasp of Turkish history, but explaining a Kemalist that he's not western is like talking to a wall. You can't talk sense into a poisoned mind that is in hate, denial and shame with his own history and past. Turkey is one of the few countries in the world that has these pitiable individuals who despise their history and live in their own artificial "reality". And the only answer they have is even more stupid arguments that directly connect to current day politics.
  - mrtksn 3y ago
    I'm not a Kemalist. However, after reading your analysis, I have come to my senses and now I am completely open to the notion of "Western values that emerged after WWII and were used as pretext for the invasion of the 3rd world", although they were a significant political topic during the final decades of the Ottoman Empire, which collapsed in WWI(WWI predates WWII by about 30 years). Now that I am enlightened, I can see how Ataturk embraced pro-Western values that emerged after 1945, despite his death in 1938. Who cares about context and chronology these days, right? PS: By the way, I think I understand why you might be triggered. When you hear "Western values," you likely perceive something entirely different from what it means in Turkey. Just relax, the Western values I am referring to have nothing to do with the culture wars you are engaged in. In the context of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, Western values pertain to scientific, cultural, and political progress that occurred in Europe during the decline of the Ottoman Empire. They are unrelated to whatever you may be imagining. It does not involve topics such as gay rights or the like, as the Ottomans were already quite tolerant in these matters, rendering them irrelevant in the context of the Ottomans and Turkey. Or maybe you are not involved in the American culture wars, even then western values don't mean the thing you think it means in Turkey. In Turkey western values mean secular governance, secular judicial system, secular education, women's rights, families where one man is married to one woman and they have the same rights.

by mrtksn 3y ago

goodbyesf 3y ago

> Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation? > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain. > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. 'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'. > I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks. > it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist? I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.

mrtksn 3y ago
You really need to stop speaking about stuff you don’t know. Opinions are fine but factual problems like chronology are not forgivable. You will be surprised that the westernization of the society was something that started as a political movement during the Ottoman empire and if you check the numbers, you will see that the empire was long gone before the World War II. That’s why I don’t think that you deserve any serious answer because you are off completely. It’s like you claiming that the French Revolution happened because the French listened too much Rolling Stones. In case you decided to check out the history of Turkey, you also need to stop thinking about the Turkish society in American cultural war therms if you like to understand what is going on in Turkey. Or maybe you are Turkish nationalist who believes in the mythology. Then yes, this would be a touchy subject to you because it is hurting your nationalist pride. You should hold nationalist pride parades. Or even worse, are you believer of the AKP's alternative history where the Ottomans were the pinnacle of science&technology, Abdulhamit was a hero and Ataturk was a British spy? In that case, you should watch less series on the governments TV channels.
_v7gu 3y ago
Imagine arguing against a person with a clearly Turkish handle about who knows Turkey better. Also funny you say "western values" only started existing post-ww2 when Turkish national anthem very explicitly contains digs against it.
ax0ar 3y ago
You do have a good grasp of Turkish history, but explaining a Kemalist that he's not western is like talking to a wall. You can't talk sense into a poisoned mind that is in hate, denial and shame with his own history and past. Turkey is one of the few countries in the world that has these pitiable individuals who despise their history and live in their own artificial "reality". And the only answer they have is even more stupid arguments that directly connect to current day politics.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  I'm not a Kemalist. However, after reading your analysis, I have come to my senses and now I am completely open to the notion of "Western values that emerged after WWII and were used as pretext for the invasion of the 3rd world", although they were a significant political topic during the final decades of the Ottoman Empire, which collapsed in WWI(WWI predates WWII by about 30 years). Now that I am enlightened, I can see how Ataturk embraced pro-Western values that emerged after 1945, despite his death in 1938. Who cares about context and chronology these days, right? PS: By the way, I think I understand why you might be triggered. When you hear "Western values," you likely perceive something entirely different from what it means in Turkey. Just relax, the Western values I am referring to have nothing to do with the culture wars you are engaged in. In the context of the Ottoman Empire and Turkey, Western values pertain to scientific, cultural, and political progress that occurred in Europe during the decline of the Ottoman Empire. They are unrelated to whatever you may be imagining. It does not involve topics such as gay rights or the like, as the Ottomans were already quite tolerant in these matters, rendering them irrelevant in the context of the Ottomans and Turkey. Or maybe you are not involved in the American culture wars, even then western values don't mean the thing you think it means in Turkey. In Turkey western values mean secular governance, secular judicial system, secular education, women's rights, families where one man is married to one woman and they have the same rights.