7 ms·

Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome and probably nothing else. Not only the endless layers of multi-millennial history, even the current st

by mrtksn 3y ago

Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome and probably nothing else. Not only the endless layers of multi-millennial history, even the current state of the inhabitants is extremely diverse. It's also surprisingly safe. IMHO the city got ruined in so many ways during the Turkish economic boom the last 5 decades and yet you can tell that the city "still got it". In your runtime analogy, the current state of the modern istanbul is like everything new being like bloated Electron app. The current mayor is from the secular Turks with western values and he is doing some great things to reduce the bloatware and re-surface the hidden gems through full rewrites. But sometimes he encounters unexpected behaviour. Just recently, he converted Feshane(old factory where they used to produce Fez style hats during the Ottoman times) into an art gallery but due to some undocumented API the islamist started protesting him for not respecting their values. Here is the Feshane after the conversion: https://twitter.com/ekrem_imamoglu/status/1671578928148881430 https://twitter.com/ekrem_imamoglu/status/167157892814888143... Here is the protest: https://twitter.com/tcbuyuksehir/status/1678147852453683206 https://twitter.com/tcbuyuksehir/status/1678147852453683206 Note: Before the conversion, Feshane was used for food markets and such.

objektif 3y ago
You are doing Istanbul and Rome a disservice by putting them in the same league with London and Paris.
- ChainOfFools 3y ago
  Seconding this, these cities have a rich history but it's hardly a footnote compared to the chronology baked in to the stratigraphy of Rome and even more so, Istanbul. The latter city bridges two continents, and it shows it and feels it in every respect. plus, cats. In what city can you double your entertainment just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere.
  - objektif 3y ago
    Istanbul is an incredibly complex city with endless things to do. However, it is just that I have never had this feeling of being in an ancient metropolis in any other city other than Istanbul. It may be the huge mosques on the hills combined with the natural beauty of the Bosphorus strait.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    > just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere. Damn, I need to go back if only because I never thought of this. :D
goodbyesf 3y ago
> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman empire. > and probably nothing else. No, it is in the same league with many of the ancient cities in the region and elsewhere around the world. Cities tend to be built on top of each other not just today but throughout history. > the islamist started protesting him for not respecting their values. Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated. Last I checked, turkey is a muslim turkic nation and lets hope they hold onto their values.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk happened, Turkey was formed as a nation with western ideals. Also, an old hat factory which was used as a market is not something islamic. The mayor wasn't paddling any western values to islamists, the mayor was elected by the popular vote and he is still very popular. He does what the electorate demands and significant portion of the electorate demands art galleries. I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Are you taking any red pills by any chance? Anyway, don't form your opinions from James Bond movies.
  - goodbyesf 3y ago
    > Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation? > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain. > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. 'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'. > I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks. > it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist? I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.
erenyeager 3y ago
This is an insidious implicit assertion that because the current mayor is a “good” secular Turk and the “bad” Islamists are protesting, I even note you did not describe these people as turks… this is a typical contrast for Turkey, a division of white and black turks, going back to the time when Turkey was more oppressive towards religious practice for the sake of “secularism”… This style of bowing down to some altar of laic secularism and appealing to a western audience is quite overdone and out of touch with the modern day west, which mostly accepts freedom to practice religion especially in Anglophone countries. Luckily with globalization and the internet, more and more these woven narratives are being exposed for their baselessness. It’s clear that Turkey as a whole has continued its choice to vote for its leader Erdogan of the AKP. This is a signal of the fact that most Turks still support this alternate approach to the country, compared to the changes going back to Ataturk which was imposed on the native population. That is to say, I am always finding curious this group of white Turks and secularists who assume themselves to be above the others and irreverent to their beliefs. Perhaps this arrogance is what continues to be their downfall as they cannot accept sharing power with the other, more religiously oriented Turkey.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  You are reading too much into it, there is nothing Islamic about an old fez hat factory. There is no such thing as hat factory values. You are just repeating the overused “ white Turks” idiom which no longer has any credibility since if fell off grace after 20 years of absolute Islamist rule - there is no longer a white Turk establishment. Besides, I’m not Turkish born, I’m an immigrant I cannot be a white Turk. It’s true that Erdogan won in Turkey again, but we are talking about Istanbul here and in Istanbul he is no longer the most popular one.
  - erenyeager 3y ago
    As for the Fez, it certainly is symbolic of ottoman times, and was famously outlawed by Ataturk in favor of brim caps, in what is called the Hat Revolution [1]. This was part of an assault on older values and also had anti religious elements. Next, your characterization of Erdogan’s government as 20 years of absolute Islamist rule is a very loose definition. I do not think you can liken all of his rule as absolute and after all Turkey is still a democracy yet. Also he is not “Islamist” except in a loose terminology, as he did not change Turkey’s government system and overturn in favor of Sharia. You also likened the protesters to an “old api” that interferes with new development… how is one to interpret that except you see the protesters and their values as an old impediment to progress, one which needs to be removed or “updated”? It’s not so long ago there were protests for Taksim square for Gezi park. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_Revolution
dang 3y ago
Please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar or any other kind of flamewar. We got a doozy below. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We've had to warn you about this multiple times before. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36700345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36700345.
- mrtksn 3y ago
  Apologies, It felt relevant with the analogy as it was a recent event. It inevitably turns into a flamewar, though I don't have such intentions.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by mrtksn 3y ago

objektif 3y ago

You are doing Istanbul and Rome a disservice by putting them in the same league with London and Paris.

ChainOfFools 3y ago
Seconding this, these cities have a rich history but it's hardly a footnote compared to the chronology baked in to the stratigraphy of Rome and even more so, Istanbul. The latter city bridges two continents, and it shows it and feels it in every respect. plus, cats. In what city can you double your entertainment just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere.
- objektif 3y ago
  Istanbul is an incredibly complex city with endless things to do. However, it is just that I have never had this feeling of being in an ancient metropolis in any other city other than Istanbul. It may be the huge mosques on the hills combined with the natural beauty of the Bosphorus strait.
- klyrs 3y ago
  > just by carrying a small laser pointer with you everywhere. Damn, I need to go back if only because I never thought of this. :D

goodbyesf 3y ago

> Istanbul is in the same league with London, Paris, Rome London and Paris do not belong on that list. Rome is on another level. Paris and London are a few levels below somewhere. Heck I'd say istanbul is a level above rome since the turks added onto constantinople and added a richness and extra layer that rome never got. Not to mention that the eastern roman empire was far more impressive that than the western roman empire. > and probably nothing else. No, it is in the same league with many of the ancient cities in the region and elsewhere around the world. Cities tend to be built on top of each other not just today but throughout history. > the islamist started protesting him for not respecting their values. Good. Considering turkey isn't a western nation, why should their mayor peddle 'western values' as you stated. Last I checked, turkey is a muslim turkic nation and lets hope they hold onto their values.

mrtksn 3y ago
Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all, Turkey is an ethnically diverse nation where almost all the population claims to be muslims but they all practice at different levels and the devote muslims are a small minority of the population. The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. Then Atatürk happened, Turkey was formed as a nation with western ideals. Also, an old hat factory which was used as a market is not something islamic. The mayor wasn't paddling any western values to islamists, the mayor was elected by the popular vote and he is still very popular. He does what the electorate demands and significant portion of the electorate demands art galleries. I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Are you taking any red pills by any chance? Anyway, don't form your opinions from James Bond movies.
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  > Turkey is not a muslim turkic nation at all It's a predominantly islamic turkish speaking nation. You say 'almost all the population claims to be muslim' and say it's not a muslim nation? > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries No. The ottoman empire was a legacy of the turkish nation. It's why the ottoman empire is also called the turkish empire. The nation predates the empire. Just like britain to british empire back to britain. > The country itself is the legacy of the Ottoman empire which was partly in Europe for centuries, thus was influenced by western values for hundreds of years already. 'Western values' is a post ww2 neo-colonial nonsense invented in the last few decades to justify our continuing invasion of the 3rd world. It hasn't existed for 'hundreds of years' just like 'the west' hasn't existed for hundreds of years. Also, the ottoman empire was a conquering empire that did more exporting of 'values' than importing of it from europe. For hundreds of years, the ottomans had the upper hand. It's only the weaken turkish nation that start adopting european science, technology, etc after their empire was destroyed by 'the west'. > I think you need to update your understanding of Turkey, No. I think I have a fairly strong grasp of turkish history. Thanks. > it's very lacking and almost offensively shallow. Says the person who thinks being being turkic or muslim is worse than being 'western'. I'm saying turkey should be proud of who they are. You are saying they should be embarrassed by who they are and try to mimic 'superior' westerners. Isn't that the gist? I've nothing against turkish people or muslims. Though you certainly seem to have something against them.

erenyeager 3y ago

This is an insidious implicit assertion that because the current mayor is a “good” secular Turk and the “bad” Islamists are protesting, I even note you did not describe these people as turks… this is a typical contrast for Turkey, a division of white and black turks, going back to the time when Turkey was more oppressive towards religious practice for the sake of “secularism”… This style of bowing down to some altar of laic secularism and appealing to a western audience is quite overdone and out of touch with the modern day west, which mostly accepts freedom to practice religion especially in Anglophone countries. Luckily with globalization and the internet, more and more these woven narratives are being exposed for their baselessness. It’s clear that Turkey as a whole has continued its choice to vote for its leader Erdogan of the AKP. This is a signal of the fact that most Turks still support this alternate approach to the country, compared to the changes going back to Ataturk which was imposed on the native population. That is to say, I am always finding curious this group of white Turks and secularists who assume themselves to be above the others and irreverent to their beliefs. Perhaps this arrogance is what continues to be their downfall as they cannot accept sharing power with the other, more religiously oriented Turkey.

mrtksn 3y ago
You are reading too much into it, there is nothing Islamic about an old fez hat factory. There is no such thing as hat factory values. You are just repeating the overused “ white Turks” idiom which no longer has any credibility since if fell off grace after 20 years of absolute Islamist rule - there is no longer a white Turk establishment. Besides, I’m not Turkish born, I’m an immigrant I cannot be a white Turk. It’s true that Erdogan won in Turkey again, but we are talking about Istanbul here and in Istanbul he is no longer the most popular one.
- erenyeager 3y ago
  As for the Fez, it certainly is symbolic of ottoman times, and was famously outlawed by Ataturk in favor of brim caps, in what is called the Hat Revolution [1]. This was part of an assault on older values and also had anti religious elements. Next, your characterization of Erdogan’s government as 20 years of absolute Islamist rule is a very loose definition. I do not think you can liken all of his rule as absolute and after all Turkey is still a democracy yet. Also he is not “Islamist” except in a loose terminology, as he did not change Turkey’s government system and overturn in favor of Sharia. You also likened the protesters to an “old api” that interferes with new development… how is one to interpret that except you see the protesters and their values as an old impediment to progress, one which needs to be removed or “updated”? It’s not so long ago there were protests for Taksim square for Gezi park. 1: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_Revolution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hat_Revolution

dang 3y ago

Please don't take HN threads into religious flamewar or any other kind of flamewar. We got a doozy below. It's not what this site is for, and destroys what it is for. We've had to warn you about this multiple times before. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36700345 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36700345.

mrtksn 3y ago
Apologies, It felt relevant with the analogy as it was a recent event. It inevitably turns into a flamewar, though I don't have such intentions.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]