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I understand what you mean about Tolkien, he describes seemingly random crap at length and doesn't really care about the plot, but it's not really accurate to c

I understand what you mean about Tolkien, he describes seemingly random crap at length and doesn't really care about the plot, but it's not really accurate to call him verbose. The entirety of the Lord of the Rings has less words than two ASOIAF books or WoT books. I recently re-read LotR for the first time since childhood and what struck me is just how compact they are compared to modern fantasy.

solardev 3y ago
Really? I tried to read the first few chapters but couldn't get into it... just seemed like so much unnecessary detail. What might be a minute or two in the movies took forever in the books. Maybe I'll give it another shot though, based on what you said
- nine_k 3y ago
  If the details seem unnecessary but keep reappearing, maybe it's because the author finds them necessary, important, or even the main subject of the work. I think there's a book where this idea is pushed to the utter extreme: it's Ulysses by James Joyce. Apparently it's a book about mundane people doing mundane things on a unremarkable day. But Joyce made a point to write a book about all these details, all this tissue of daily life which is commonly omitted in books, or even suppressed and distorted to fit to a stylistic or moralistic mold. I's a book about how a person lives a day on the low level, how maybe an alien would see it.
  - solardev 3y ago
    I mean, I love ethnographic or "day in the life" nonfiction books, learning about different real cultures that way. But when they're about fictional cultures, I dunno, it feels like it'd just be better to experience that in a RPG video game or movie or something... (as a matter of personal preference only). Of course authors are free to write as they wish. I'd never tell someone "Yo, you have too much detail for my tastes." I just wouldn't read them again. They have their own fanbases, I'm sure, just as I have my own preferences for writing style. Nothing wrong with that, right? In fact I wish there were a good recommendation engine for books based on previous reads, writing style, setting, length, etc.
- oscillonoscope 3y ago
  It's a slow beginning. Tolkien focuses a lot on Hobbit culture as it's important to the morality of the narrative but it picks up very quickly. Oftentimes important events are only briefly summarized by one character to another as they meet up or narrated in brief chapters. That said, his writing style definitely isn't for everyone.
watwut 3y ago
ASOIAF are massively verbose tho. It amounts to argument that more verbose books exists, not that Tolkien is not verbose.
- oscillonoscope 3y ago
  The Twilight series has a higher word count than LotR + The Hobbit if that's a more apt comparison for you
  - solardev 3y ago
    Every speck of glitter must be individually described.
mellavora 3y ago
Yes, the thing with Tolkien, is he was telling stories which are meant to be TOLD, as in oral, spoken out loud. To an audience which might be falling asleep, or minds drifting as they stare at the fire. That's part of his magic, and few other authors match it. Contrast to Harry Potter, which is a stream of visual images.

solardev 3y ago

Really? I tried to read the first few chapters but couldn't get into it... just seemed like so much unnecessary detail. What might be a minute or two in the movies took forever in the books. Maybe I'll give it another shot though, based on what you said

nine_k 3y ago
If the details seem unnecessary but keep reappearing, maybe it's because the author finds them necessary, important, or even the main subject of the work. I think there's a book where this idea is pushed to the utter extreme: it's Ulysses by James Joyce. Apparently it's a book about mundane people doing mundane things on a unremarkable day. But Joyce made a point to write a book about all these details, all this tissue of daily life which is commonly omitted in books, or even suppressed and distorted to fit to a stylistic or moralistic mold. I's a book about how a person lives a day on the low level, how maybe an alien would see it.
- solardev 3y ago
  I mean, I love ethnographic or "day in the life" nonfiction books, learning about different real cultures that way. But when they're about fictional cultures, I dunno, it feels like it'd just be better to experience that in a RPG video game or movie or something... (as a matter of personal preference only). Of course authors are free to write as they wish. I'd never tell someone "Yo, you have too much detail for my tastes." I just wouldn't read them again. They have their own fanbases, I'm sure, just as I have my own preferences for writing style. Nothing wrong with that, right? In fact I wish there were a good recommendation engine for books based on previous reads, writing style, setting, length, etc.
oscillonoscope 3y ago
It's a slow beginning. Tolkien focuses a lot on Hobbit culture as it's important to the morality of the narrative but it picks up very quickly. Oftentimes important events are only briefly summarized by one character to another as they meet up or narrated in brief chapters. That said, his writing style definitely isn't for everyone.

watwut 3y ago

ASOIAF are massively verbose tho. It amounts to argument that more verbose books exists, not that Tolkien is not verbose.

oscillonoscope 3y ago
The Twilight series has a higher word count than LotR + The Hobbit if that's a more apt comparison for you
- solardev 3y ago
  Every speck of glitter must be individually described.

mellavora 3y ago

Yes, the thing with Tolkien, is he was telling stories which are meant to be TOLD, as in oral, spoken out loud. To an audience which might be falling asleep, or minds drifting as they stare at the fire. That's part of his magic, and few other authors match it. Contrast to Harry Potter, which is a stream of visual images.