5 ms·

Glad to see a company take the moral way, not the most profitable one. It’s disgusting how many companies happily keep conducting business with/in Russia.

by Zanfa 3y ago

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way. Not as moral as preventing people fleeing the military draft from crossing the border, but close.
- Timon3 3y ago
  It's not about punishing those people, but about not supporting the government which is currently invading another country. You can't stop supporting the government without "punishing" the people, and it's not acceptable to keep supporting the government. Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government.
  - alex_smart 3y ago
    Aren't the two of you saying the same things?
    - Timon3 3y ago
      I don't think so. GP is saying that "punishing" Russian citizens by not doing business with them is immoral. I'm saying that doing business with Russian entities is immoral.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    > Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government. Yes, all of Ukraine with an actual army, drones, rockets, tanks, artillery and zillions of cash from NATO countries struggles to contain Putin's gang, and Russian people must remove him from power barehanded, while the EU help comes mostly in a form of sanctions, visa bans and cancellations of service by such companies as Grammarly.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      If you don't want nuclear fallout, then yes, that is literally what has to happen.
      - marcinzm 3y ago
        Not to mention there are very very few cases of a foreign forceful power changes in a country working out well for the people of that country. I'd argue it's utterly immoral based on historical examples to invade a country to change it's government no matter the type of government. To say a million dead people is better than not accessing Grammarly is such a baffling statement to me.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        Can you please share with me some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll?
        Timon3 3y ago
        Can you explain why you want "some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll"? Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of?
        Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        A few messages above you said, > Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government. I'm one of the punished people. Sure, I don't want the nuclear fallout. So please, share with me your wisdom on how should I, a responsible person, act to remove Putin from power? > Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of? Apparently, you were able to think of several ways how Putin could be overthrown, I'll be happy to hear them all.
- marcinzm 3y ago
  >Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way So companies now have a moral responsibility to provide their services to everyone across the world even if they may lose money in the process or get fined for violating sanctions? That's a very interesting moral framework you got there.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    So do I get you right, once a country has some person or company on the sanctions list, companies should better cease operating in that country to not get fined for violating sanctions?
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      A company does not need a reason to stop servicing a country. They just can.
      - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        And users can stop trusting such company and using its products. (It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily)
        marcinzm 3y ago
        >(It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily) Huh? I never made a statement about sanctions and morality. In fact I explicitly said it is not a moral question and questioned your statement that it is a moral question versus a standard business decision. >And users can stop trusting such company and using its products. Of course. Freedom of association is great.
    - op00to 3y ago
      No, that's a facile assertion. It's not even about "sanctions". Companies should cease operating in a country where the legal and practical risks of doing business in the country outweigh any potential profit. Russia isn't exactly rolling in the dough right now, and most goods sold in Russia now require a license to transfer[1]. Add to that the risk of the Russian government simply stealing your business away from you, and you have quite the effective deterrent. American companies unloading their Russian assets like offices are advised by the American Bar Association to destroy everything that's not nailed down so that they do not have licensing concerns. [2] [1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-guidance/russia-belarus https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-gu... [2] https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/08/doing-business-with-russia-difficult/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... Edit: I can't reply to you, but [3] here's an example of how Russia legalized the theft of intellectual property. [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/russia-allows-patent-theft/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/russia-al...
- arghwhat 3y ago
  A country is its people. Unfortunate as it is, you cannot support - or harm - one without the other.
  - lionkor 3y ago
    There are plenty of Russians who do not support the invasion, why punish them? Especially when they've been loyal users for a long time?
    - arghwhat 3y ago
      It is no different when a government uses trade sanctions. All citizens are harmed, whether they are patriots, rebels, neutral or ignorant. It would be much less fair you to try to judge individuals, and it would not be effective if it only affected a few citizens.
    - yaroslavyar 3y ago
      Despite any political dispute, which is not belongs here, Grammarly obviously denied Russian users because they are actually Ukrainian company. Worth to mention that on the other hand there was some betrayals within Ukrainians who sold a heavy weapons (e.g. tank engine) to Russians even after the war started, luckily there are just a few of them.
- Zanfa 3y ago
  People are the country. And draft dodgers are not even necessarily against the war or the regime. They just don’t wanna be cannon fodder, which is understandable, but also doesn’t mean they should be granted asylum.
itake 3y ago
Did Grammarly help their employees to escape the draft [0] and moved jobs out of Ukraine? If so, is that moral? [0] - https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/02/how-grammarly-works-since-the-beginning-of-the-full-scale-war-and-what-they-are-planning/ https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/02/how-grammarly-works-since-...
lionkor 3y ago
If youre in Russia and you oppose your own government, but can't leave, you should be punished?

Glad to see a company take the moral way, not the most profitable one. It’s disgusting how many companies happily keep conducting business with/in Russia.

by Zanfa 3y ago

Glad to see a company take the moral way, not the most profitable one. It’s disgusting how many companies happily keep conducting business with/in Russia.

Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago

Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way. Not as moral as preventing people fleeing the military draft from crossing the border, but close.

Timon3 3y ago
It's not about punishing those people, but about not supporting the government which is currently invading another country. You can't stop supporting the government without "punishing" the people, and it's not acceptable to keep supporting the government. Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government.
- alex_smart 3y ago
  Aren't the two of you saying the same things?
  - Timon3 3y ago
    I don't think so. GP is saying that "punishing" Russian citizens by not doing business with them is immoral. I'm saying that doing business with Russian entities is immoral.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  > Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government. Yes, all of Ukraine with an actual army, drones, rockets, tanks, artillery and zillions of cash from NATO countries struggles to contain Putin's gang, and Russian people must remove him from power barehanded, while the EU help comes mostly in a form of sanctions, visa bans and cancellations of service by such companies as Grammarly.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    If you don't want nuclear fallout, then yes, that is literally what has to happen.
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      Not to mention there are very very few cases of a foreign forceful power changes in a country working out well for the people of that country. I'd argue it's utterly immoral based on historical examples to invade a country to change it's government no matter the type of government. To say a million dead people is better than not accessing Grammarly is such a baffling statement to me.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
      Can you please share with me some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll?
      - Timon3 3y ago
        Can you explain why you want "some realistic tactical advice how can a bunch of unarmed civilians overthrow the government guarded by ~5 million armed, organized and well paid thugs who are currently on Putin's payroll"? Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of?
        Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
        A few messages above you said, > Ultimately the people who are being punished are responsible for stopping the punishment by removing their government. I'm one of the punished people. Sure, I don't want the nuclear fallout. So please, share with me your wisdom on how should I, a responsible person, act to remove Putin from power? > Is this the only way that Putin could be overthrown that you can think of? Apparently, you were able to think of several ways how Putin could be overthrown, I'll be happy to hear them all.
marcinzm 3y ago
>Yes, punishing people that have nothing to do with the invasion is totally the moral way So companies now have a moral responsibility to provide their services to everyone across the world even if they may lose money in the process or get fined for violating sanctions? That's a very interesting moral framework you got there.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  So do I get you right, once a country has some person or company on the sanctions list, companies should better cease operating in that country to not get fined for violating sanctions?
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    A company does not need a reason to stop servicing a country. They just can.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
      And users can stop trusting such company and using its products. (It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily)
      - marcinzm 3y ago
        >(It is notable, how quickly you abandoned your arguments about the risk of sanctions and moralily) Huh? I never made a statement about sanctions and morality. In fact I explicitly said it is not a moral question and questioned your statement that it is a moral question versus a standard business decision. >And users can stop trusting such company and using its products. Of course. Freedom of association is great.
  - op00to 3y ago
    No, that's a facile assertion. It's not even about "sanctions". Companies should cease operating in a country where the legal and practical risks of doing business in the country outweigh any potential profit. Russia isn't exactly rolling in the dough right now, and most goods sold in Russia now require a license to transfer[1]. Add to that the risk of the Russian government simply stealing your business away from you, and you have quite the effective deterrent. American companies unloading their Russian assets like offices are advised by the American Bar Association to destroy everything that's not nailed down so that they do not have licensing concerns. [2] [1] https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-guidance/russia-belarus https://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-guidance/country-gu... [2] https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2022/08/doing-business-with-russia-difficult/ https://www.americanbar.org/news/abanews/aba-news-archives/2... Edit: I can't reply to you, but [3] here's an example of how Russia legalized the theft of intellectual property. [3] https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/russia-allows-patent-theft/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/03/09/russia-al...
arghwhat 3y ago
A country is its people. Unfortunate as it is, you cannot support - or harm - one without the other.
- lionkor 3y ago
  There are plenty of Russians who do not support the invasion, why punish them? Especially when they've been loyal users for a long time?
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    It is no different when a government uses trade sanctions. All citizens are harmed, whether they are patriots, rebels, neutral or ignorant. It would be much less fair you to try to judge individuals, and it would not be effective if it only affected a few citizens.
  - yaroslavyar 3y ago
    Despite any political dispute, which is not belongs here, Grammarly obviously denied Russian users because they are actually Ukrainian company. Worth to mention that on the other hand there was some betrayals within Ukrainians who sold a heavy weapons (e.g. tank engine) to Russians even after the war started, luckily there are just a few of them.
Zanfa 3y ago
People are the country. And draft dodgers are not even necessarily against the war or the regime. They just don’t wanna be cannon fodder, which is understandable, but also doesn’t mean they should be granted asylum.

itake 3y ago

Did Grammarly help their employees to escape the draft [0] and moved jobs out of Ukraine? If so, is that moral? [0] - https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/02/how-grammarly-works-since-the-beginning-of-the-full-scale-war-and-what-they-are-planning/ https://mezha.media/en/2022/06/02/how-grammarly-works-since-...

lionkor 3y ago

If youre in Russia and you oppose your own government, but can't leave, you should be punished?