4 ms·

I strongly believe that you should be able to have a government-backed, federated ID. It's crazy that digital citizenship hasn't really arrived in a meaningful

I strongly believe that you should be able to have a government-backed, federated ID. It's crazy that digital citizenship hasn't really arrived in a meaningful way (in America) and instead we have to be digital-feudal subjects of various privately-run corporations, or lurk in the shadows of the Internet via anonymity and good opsec. Whether everyone must have one is an entirely different debate.

nemo44x 3y ago
> I strongly believe that you should be able to have a government-backed, federated ID. No thank you. This sort of thing will eventually become compelled and made into a series of regulations in the name of "safety", etc. > lurk in the shadows of the Internet via anonymity and good opsec. This is a feature, not a bug. Anonymitity is extremely important for many people.
- gochi 3y ago
  It's not an either or. More people are handling important tasks through the internet it's time we all step up and take that more seriously. We can do so without losing anonymity. Negating this won't keep you anonymous, we're already being tracked at every possible avenue with profiles created on us the second we open a website or app. We can either tackle this head on by taking ID seriously online on our terms (necessary E2EE, full ID can never be accessed, it's not stored in a central database, etc), or we can let most corporations continue to trade our profiles around for funsies while acting like our pseudonyms will protect us.
- pphysch 3y ago
  As I said, anonymity should always be an option. But it should also be an option to engage in platforms where anonymous spammers, trolls, and criminals are not feasible, where reputation matters and some level of social integrity can be restored. And ideally without a secretive corporation exploiting your attention and data for their profits. I promise you that this latter group (youths, "normies") is vastly larger than the group of people who actually need anonymity.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    > I promise you that this latter group (youths, "normies") is vastly larger than the group of people who actually need anonymity. I just don't think that's true. Many people have opinions that will lead them to being attacked and cancelled, etc. There are groups of people ready to isolate and pounce on whoever they can so as to compel others to shut-up. I get what you're saying but I don't agree that government has a place in regulating speech. People are free to join or leave platforms as they see fit.
  - joiqj 3y ago
    Once an electronic ID is created it will be enforced, perhaps even to log into the internet, and anonymity won't be an option. The EU busybodies are not your friends.
- xorcist 3y ago
  Anything resembling a modern society is built on identity. How would you access a bank account anonymously? How would you file your taxes anonymously? Get an education? Acquire (legal) drugs? Buy a house? Travel abroad (and back again)? Most countries have a way to provide identity to provide the above services. Passports are an internationally federated system, but there is no equivalent for digital signatures. This is a problem when you want to study or work abroad, or receive pension from abroad, or any of a dozen other real world situations that regularly causes headaches for normal people.
  - nemo44x 3y ago
    It already exists if you need the IRS or if you want to buy/sell treasuries. We don’t need an identity that spans the internet. It will become compelled eventually.
collegeburner 3y ago
nope, if we create an easy mechanism to force someone to prove he's one real government-identified person then sites will gradually require it. suspended from twitter? can't create another account cause you only have one id! want to share something anonymously to avoid getting fired or investigated by feds? tough, you're required to sign in with your MyID to keep everyone safe! the only way to prevent this is to not build it and vote out anyone who tries to create it. government ruins and abuses everything it touches, we have a consistent pattern of behavior to go off here we should actually be moving in the opposite direction. i shouldn't have to prove i'm anyone basically ever, except for taxes and census. not for planes or trains or buying liquor. driving can be licensed but should be an "anonymous license", like "i'm driver #9238" not "i'm fred the licensed driver". and those numbers ("driver number", ssn) should be barred from use as identification for any other purpose with massive penalties. here's the moral reason why: forcing ID creates tools for administering punishment/"accountability", but it does this in advance of something being judged as wrongdoing. basically prior restraint on a mass scale. and when the government promulgates ID technologies it promulgates tools for this abuse of liberty.
vidarh 3y ago
The EU/EEA has eIDAS which requires providers to recognise electronic IDs issued across the EEA to some extent. Since I'm in the UK (grumble grumble Brexit) I haven't kept up that much despite being a Norwegian citizen, but in some countries at least this in theory IDs issued to certain standards by private actors. E.g. Norway has MinID (government issued), BankID (bank issued, also allows bank logins), Commfides and BuyPass, all of which issues id's that you can use to log in or sign with that tie your signature to the Norwegian national ID number. Many of the countries makes extensive use of these IDs. E.g. in Norway you can log in to most government services with any of the recognised providers, and can sign contracts and even marriage licenses with them. Interestingly Norway and Estonia appears to be the only two countries that have submitted more than one eID scheme to the European Commission for acceptance across the EEA, and interestingly for Norway both of them are privately provided; the (lower security) government run ID scheme has not been submitted: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/wikis/display/EIDCOMMUNITY/Overview+of+pre-notified+and+notified+eID+schemes+under+eIDAS https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/wikis/display/E...
stiltzkin 3y ago
Are you sure you really want a Digital IDs as China does?.
- pphysch 3y ago
  Why not? Should we shun good ideas because they can be associated with the current Big Bad? You could just as easily have pointed to Ukraine or other Good Western Democracies countries that also have forms of digital citizenship.
  - rvz 3y ago
    > Why not? Should we shun good ideas because they can be associated with the current Big Bad? Not all 'ideas' are 'good ideas'. Especially when governments only care about more control and once they do something unpopular, then they will abuse their 'emergency powers' to surveil, track and shutdown any unrest until the people comply. Even if it means freezing their bank accounts (and bypassing the banks) or shutting down ATMs to prevent cash withdrawals. All possible with digital IDs and CBDCs.
  - krapp 3y ago
    I would consider the US the Big Bad in this situation, given its history of genocide, racial oppression, union busting, political infiltration and disenfranchisement, mass surveillance and the current right-wing zeitgeist against women and transgender people across half the country. I wouldn't give the US an inch in this regard.
- nerdbert 3y ago
  Are you really sure you want running water like China has?
hooli_gan 3y ago
W3 and IETF are working on standards for this, SD-JWT[1] with oidc4vc[2] looks like the most promising Verifiable Credential[3] technology to me. [1] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-oauth-selective-disclosure-jwt-05.html https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-oauth-selective-d... [2] https://openid.net/specs/openid-4-verifiable-credential-issuance-1_0.html https://openid.net/specs/openid-4-verifiable-credential-issu... [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/#what-is-a-verifiable-credential https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/#what-is-a-verifiabl...

nemo44x 3y ago

> I strongly believe that you should be able to have a government-backed, federated ID. No thank you. This sort of thing will eventually become compelled and made into a series of regulations in the name of "safety", etc. > lurk in the shadows of the Internet via anonymity and good opsec. This is a feature, not a bug. Anonymitity is extremely important for many people.

gochi 3y ago
It's not an either or. More people are handling important tasks through the internet it's time we all step up and take that more seriously. We can do so without losing anonymity. Negating this won't keep you anonymous, we're already being tracked at every possible avenue with profiles created on us the second we open a website or app. We can either tackle this head on by taking ID seriously online on our terms (necessary E2EE, full ID can never be accessed, it's not stored in a central database, etc), or we can let most corporations continue to trade our profiles around for funsies while acting like our pseudonyms will protect us.
pphysch 3y ago
As I said, anonymity should always be an option. But it should also be an option to engage in platforms where anonymous spammers, trolls, and criminals are not feasible, where reputation matters and some level of social integrity can be restored. And ideally without a secretive corporation exploiting your attention and data for their profits. I promise you that this latter group (youths, "normies") is vastly larger than the group of people who actually need anonymity.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  > I promise you that this latter group (youths, "normies") is vastly larger than the group of people who actually need anonymity. I just don't think that's true. Many people have opinions that will lead them to being attacked and cancelled, etc. There are groups of people ready to isolate and pounce on whoever they can so as to compel others to shut-up. I get what you're saying but I don't agree that government has a place in regulating speech. People are free to join or leave platforms as they see fit.
- joiqj 3y ago
  Once an electronic ID is created it will be enforced, perhaps even to log into the internet, and anonymity won't be an option. The EU busybodies are not your friends.
xorcist 3y ago
Anything resembling a modern society is built on identity. How would you access a bank account anonymously? How would you file your taxes anonymously? Get an education? Acquire (legal) drugs? Buy a house? Travel abroad (and back again)? Most countries have a way to provide identity to provide the above services. Passports are an internationally federated system, but there is no equivalent for digital signatures. This is a problem when you want to study or work abroad, or receive pension from abroad, or any of a dozen other real world situations that regularly causes headaches for normal people.
- nemo44x 3y ago
  It already exists if you need the IRS or if you want to buy/sell treasuries. We don’t need an identity that spans the internet. It will become compelled eventually.

collegeburner 3y ago

nope, if we create an easy mechanism to force someone to prove he's one real government-identified person then sites will gradually require it. suspended from twitter? can't create another account cause you only have one id! want to share something anonymously to avoid getting fired or investigated by feds? tough, you're required to sign in with your MyID to keep everyone safe! the only way to prevent this is to not build it and vote out anyone who tries to create it. government ruins and abuses everything it touches, we have a consistent pattern of behavior to go off here we should actually be moving in the opposite direction. i shouldn't have to prove i'm anyone basically ever, except for taxes and census. not for planes or trains or buying liquor. driving can be licensed but should be an "anonymous license", like "i'm driver #9238" not "i'm fred the licensed driver". and those numbers ("driver number", ssn) should be barred from use as identification for any other purpose with massive penalties. here's the moral reason why: forcing ID creates tools for administering punishment/"accountability", but it does this in advance of something being judged as wrongdoing. basically prior restraint on a mass scale. and when the government promulgates ID technologies it promulgates tools for this abuse of liberty.

vidarh 3y ago

The EU/EEA has eIDAS which requires providers to recognise electronic IDs issued across the EEA to some extent. Since I'm in the UK (grumble grumble Brexit) I haven't kept up that much despite being a Norwegian citizen, but in some countries at least this in theory IDs issued to certain standards by private actors. E.g. Norway has MinID (government issued), BankID (bank issued, also allows bank logins), Commfides and BuyPass, all of which issues id's that you can use to log in or sign with that tie your signature to the Norwegian national ID number. Many of the countries makes extensive use of these IDs. E.g. in Norway you can log in to most government services with any of the recognised providers, and can sign contracts and even marriage licenses with them. Interestingly Norway and Estonia appears to be the only two countries that have submitted more than one eID scheme to the European Commission for acceptance across the EEA, and interestingly for Norway both of them are privately provided; the (lower security) government run ID scheme has not been submitted: https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/wikis/display/EIDCOMMUNITY/Overview+of+pre-notified+and+notified+eID+schemes+under+eIDAS https://ec.europa.eu/digital-building-blocks/wikis/display/E...

stiltzkin 3y ago

Are you sure you really want a Digital IDs as China does?.

pphysch 3y ago
Why not? Should we shun good ideas because they can be associated with the current Big Bad? You could just as easily have pointed to Ukraine or other Good Western Democracies countries that also have forms of digital citizenship.
- rvz 3y ago
  > Why not? Should we shun good ideas because they can be associated with the current Big Bad? Not all 'ideas' are 'good ideas'. Especially when governments only care about more control and once they do something unpopular, then they will abuse their 'emergency powers' to surveil, track and shutdown any unrest until the people comply. Even if it means freezing their bank accounts (and bypassing the banks) or shutting down ATMs to prevent cash withdrawals. All possible with digital IDs and CBDCs.
- krapp 3y ago
  I would consider the US the Big Bad in this situation, given its history of genocide, racial oppression, union busting, political infiltration and disenfranchisement, mass surveillance and the current right-wing zeitgeist against women and transgender people across half the country. I wouldn't give the US an inch in this regard.
nerdbert 3y ago
Are you really sure you want running water like China has?

hooli_gan 3y ago

W3 and IETF are working on standards for this, SD-JWT[1] with oidc4vc[2] looks like the most promising Verifiable Credential[3] technology to me. [1] https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-oauth-selective-disclosure-jwt-05.html https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-ietf-oauth-selective-d... [2] https://openid.net/specs/openid-4-verifiable-credential-issuance-1_0.html https://openid.net/specs/openid-4-verifiable-credential-issu... [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/#what-is-a-verifiable-credential https://www.w3.org/TR/vc-data-model-2.0/#what-is-a-verifiabl...