6 ms·

I wouldn't say Reddit is user hostile. Recent actions have been to make profitable companies pay for API access. That isn't hostile to users. It's hostile to p

I wouldn't say Reddit is user hostile. Recent actions have been to make profitable companies pay for API access. That isn't hostile to users. It's hostile to parasite companies who make a profit from your product while taking away from your revenue. There are a select group of users who decided to vandalise the site in response. They were allowed to do so for a small period of time. In fact, some hardcore groups are still vandlaising the site. People are constantly asking why it's happening. The fact they were allowed to vandalise the site seems the opposite of hostile to users.

nullandvoid 3y ago
Of course Reddit is user hostile. - Can't use web version without getting the mobile version banner forced down your throat every other interaction. - Actively making the non-app version worse than the mobile, for no reason other than engagement metrics. - Not able to view "NSFW" posts (of which everything is just false labeled as that) without logging in; even though it shows you the image on the timeline (the entire "NSFW" part) - a dark pattern / cheap tactic to drive sign up. And this is just to name a few, dark patterns are a plenty across their site. I won't go into the API side of things as others have said it better, and it seems you've already made your mind up there.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  That's not hostile. That's wanting you to use one version over the other. The fact you think if they don't support your desired version of using it over any other then it's hostile to you. The things you've mentioned aren't even dark patterns. One of them could be considered just a figament of your imagination. And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really?
  - Daneel_ 3y ago
    I strongly disagree - this sort of activity by Reddit is almost textbook user hostility.
  - aydyn 3y ago
    you cant be serious. I literally can no longer browse reddit, a uncomplicated web forum, on my ipad. I used to be able to. Its performance really is that bad. Actively making your webpage worse for mobile is not user hostile?
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      Buy a better iPad? I literally just booted up my iPad to check it out. It didn't force me to the app. It didn't even prompt me to use the app. It responded in a reasonable time. old.reddit.com worked and so did the new site. All I can take away from that is you're either very fussy to the point you complain about minor things like they're major problems. Or you just can't use a website on your iPad. There is no actively making a webpage worse. It's all in your head. "I don't like this so it's worse".
      - Tor3 3y ago
        Slowing down a service or server isn't fixed by getting faster client hardware!
        gokaygurcan 3y ago
        Don't feed the troll.
        bloopernova 3y ago
        Thank you. People don't seem to recognize that someone replying so negatively and provocatively isn't engaging in good faith. They're either an idiot or a troll, and neither is worth the effort. Downvote, flag, move on.
        that_guy_iain 3y ago
        > People don't seem to recognize that someone replying so negatively and provocatively isn't engaging in good faith. People can disagree with you and be in good faith. It's a common tactic to say someone who disagrees with you but you can't prove wrong is engaging in bad faith. Let's have a solid look at this interaction. * Someone says Reddit is user hostile. * I claim it's not. * Someone claim's they're actively making the website worse. A claim that can't be backed up. * Same person claims requiring people to login to acces to content marked for 18+ is hostile. This is an absurd claim. A website shouldn't have any measure to ensure a user is old enough to access the content they're legally required to ensure they're old enough to access? * Someone claims that they can't use the website on their iPad. I boot up my cheap iPad and use it quite easily. I didn't even get prompts I expected to get that would tell me to use the app. I used both new and old versions. I assume the person isn't lying and that if they're unable to use it it's because their hardware oboslete. * Various people claim trying to get people to use your app over a website is hostile. Really, having a preferred way to use your site is hostile? All the other methods are available even old.reddit.com which should be discontinued. So while continuing to provide multiple user interfaces and supporting older ones to make users happy. They claim they're hostile. The reality is, the evidence doesn't back up the claims. To claim I'm either an idiot or a troll engaging in bad faith really is the height of bad manners. Reddit isn't hostile to it's users. It has users that are hostile to it. People who feel so entitled to a free site that they think any attempt to make it better for users who aren't them is hostile. Absolute entitlement. The tech community is one of the most entitled communties I've seen.
  - nullandvoid 3y ago
    It's the very definition of user hostility. They are forcing me to install the app for no good reason other than increased engagement. I don't want to use the app and all the rubbish that comes with it, the website has worked fine for the last 10+ years, and continues to on desktop. > "The things you've mentioned aren't even dark patterns. One of them could be considered just a figament of your imagination. And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really?" I see you decided to completely ignore what I wrote and twist it into something else, to repeat; - NSFW posts are majority NOT porn but normal posts - They already show you the image on the timeline - so stopping the post from loading after clicking, and instead showing sign up CTA's is nothing but a dark pattern / cheap trick to drive sign ups. Again, dark patterns / cheap tricks are user hostile.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    >That's not hostile. That's wanting you to use one version over the other user hostile:"A play on the common term "user-friendly", a user-hostile design is one that is, deliberately or accidentally, difficult or cumbersome for the intended user." Yes, I would consider disabling all controls on the mobile page to turn a simple webpage of comments into an ad for the app as "user hostile". A deliberate one, even. >And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really? If they had proper NSFW filters that separated porn from violence from "oh the post had the word 'fuck' in it" from "not even NSFW but the movie is rated R so may as well be safe", I may be inclined to agree. Alas, proper NSFW granularity is another feature long ask for and never given.
bayindirh 3y ago
> It's hostile to parasite companies who make a profit from your product while taking away from your revenue. So, why give cheap/free unlimited API access in the first place? To drive adoption. So, it's EEE, all again. How this is not user, even market hostile?
lambdas 3y ago
That conveniently glosses over the fact that users provide all the content for free, that these “vandals” then moderate 24/7 for free. To say “well, I’m not going to do it if you take away my tools” is entirely fair imo.
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  > That conveniently glosses over the fact that users provide all the content for free, that these “vandals” then moderate 24/7 for free. > > To say “well, I’m not going to do it if you take away my tools” is entirely fair imo. No other social platform allows users to moderate. Complaining because a social platform gives you a feature you want but doesn't pay you for using the feature you want is really silly. Then to stop doing it. It's like going to a shop helping them out and then when they decide to stop giving stuff away and try and make a profit you smash up their shop. It's not an acceptable way to act.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    It’s not a feature, it’s absolutely essential for any forum, otherwise every second comment would be shitpost. Come on, at least don’t double down if you have zero idea about what does a forum entail.
  - basch 3y ago
    >No other social platform allows users to moderate. Facebook Groups?
    - Daneel_ 3y ago
      Discord as well, if you count it as social media.
Aaargh20318 3y ago
> It's hostile to parasite companies who make a profit from your product while taking away from your revenue. Reddit literally profits from other people's content, both user-submitted content and links to 3rd party websites. Reddit as a company provides exactly zero of the content that attracts users.
kaba0 3y ago
Good job eating up their propaganda! There is nothing wrong with asking for money for the API use, if it is a reasonable amount. (Still a bit questionable, as reddit is literally leeching on user-generated content, they themselves provide very little in the equation) But these were clearly meant to stop third-party apps completely — compute is ridiculously cheap, especially when you mostly serve easily cache-able textual data. It’s a shame because it wouldn’t have been hard to make shitton of money while simultaneously riding the good-will of people by offering a subscription-based reddit premium for a few dollars at most for third-party API use.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  There's also the dishonesty of Reddit's explanation for the money-grab. They claimed it was to curb the large-scale harvesting of content for AI models, but then they abruptly demanded everyone everywhere pay excessive fees regardless of identity or purpose or usage patterns. In contrast, the big and significant actors in that space could have been dissuaded by a terms of service change combined with some rate limits.
mrweasel 3y ago
There is the users that Reddit have, and the users they want. There is an overlap of those two groups, but Reddit seems completely happy to chuck out a subsection of their users, if that means being able to jam more ads down the throat of the remaining users. I think what has happened is that Reddit have looked to Imgur, TikTok, Shorts, Instagram and other social media sites and noticed that Reddit wasn't facilitating doom scrolling in the same way. Reddit users are engaged with the site longer, I'd assume, but see fewer ads, because they remain on the same post. Management would very much like to change that. It's sad, because it shows zero engangement with the site and the users, it just an audience. They're taking their existing product at transforming it to just another scroller app, using the existing users as a means to get the ball rolling.
commandlinefan 3y ago
> I wouldn't say Reddit is user hostile Reddit has been _user_ hostile for over a decade. There's nothing particularly hostile about charging for API access, but that breaks Apollo, which _moderators_ love, which is why we're suddenly actually seeing a backlash.

nullandvoid 3y ago

Of course Reddit is user hostile. - Can't use web version without getting the mobile version banner forced down your throat every other interaction. - Actively making the non-app version worse than the mobile, for no reason other than engagement metrics. - Not able to view "NSFW" posts (of which everything is just false labeled as that) without logging in; even though it shows you the image on the timeline (the entire "NSFW" part) - a dark pattern / cheap tactic to drive sign up. And this is just to name a few, dark patterns are a plenty across their site. I won't go into the API side of things as others have said it better, and it seems you've already made your mind up there.

that_guy_iain 3y ago
That's not hostile. That's wanting you to use one version over the other. The fact you think if they don't support your desired version of using it over any other then it's hostile to you. The things you've mentioned aren't even dark patterns. One of them could be considered just a figament of your imagination. And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really?
- Daneel_ 3y ago
  I strongly disagree - this sort of activity by Reddit is almost textbook user hostility.
- aydyn 3y ago
  you cant be serious. I literally can no longer browse reddit, a uncomplicated web forum, on my ipad. I used to be able to. Its performance really is that bad. Actively making your webpage worse for mobile is not user hostile?
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    Buy a better iPad? I literally just booted up my iPad to check it out. It didn't force me to the app. It didn't even prompt me to use the app. It responded in a reasonable time. old.reddit.com worked and so did the new site. All I can take away from that is you're either very fussy to the point you complain about minor things like they're major problems. Or you just can't use a website on your iPad. There is no actively making a webpage worse. It's all in your head. "I don't like this so it's worse".
    - Tor3 3y ago
      Slowing down a service or server isn't fixed by getting faster client hardware!
      - gokaygurcan 3y ago
        Don't feed the troll.
        bloopernova 3y ago
        Thank you. People don't seem to recognize that someone replying so negatively and provocatively isn't engaging in good faith. They're either an idiot or a troll, and neither is worth the effort. Downvote, flag, move on.
        that_guy_iain 3y ago
        > People don't seem to recognize that someone replying so negatively and provocatively isn't engaging in good faith. People can disagree with you and be in good faith. It's a common tactic to say someone who disagrees with you but you can't prove wrong is engaging in bad faith. Let's have a solid look at this interaction. * Someone says Reddit is user hostile. * I claim it's not. * Someone claim's they're actively making the website worse. A claim that can't be backed up. * Same person claims requiring people to login to acces to content marked for 18+ is hostile. This is an absurd claim. A website shouldn't have any measure to ensure a user is old enough to access the content they're legally required to ensure they're old enough to access? * Someone claims that they can't use the website on their iPad. I boot up my cheap iPad and use it quite easily. I didn't even get prompts I expected to get that would tell me to use the app. I used both new and old versions. I assume the person isn't lying and that if they're unable to use it it's because their hardware oboslete. * Various people claim trying to get people to use your app over a website is hostile. Really, having a preferred way to use your site is hostile? All the other methods are available even old.reddit.com which should be discontinued. So while continuing to provide multiple user interfaces and supporting older ones to make users happy. They claim they're hostile. The reality is, the evidence doesn't back up the claims. To claim I'm either an idiot or a troll engaging in bad faith really is the height of bad manners. Reddit isn't hostile to it's users. It has users that are hostile to it. People who feel so entitled to a free site that they think any attempt to make it better for users who aren't them is hostile. Absolute entitlement. The tech community is one of the most entitled communties I've seen.
- nullandvoid 3y ago
  It's the very definition of user hostility. They are forcing me to install the app for no good reason other than increased engagement. I don't want to use the app and all the rubbish that comes with it, the website has worked fine for the last 10+ years, and continues to on desktop. > "The things you've mentioned aren't even dark patterns. One of them could be considered just a figament of your imagination. And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really?" I see you decided to completely ignore what I wrote and twist it into something else, to repeat; - NSFW posts are majority NOT porn but normal posts - They already show you the image on the timeline - so stopping the post from loading after clicking, and instead showing sign up CTA's is nothing but a dark pattern / cheap trick to drive sign ups. Again, dark patterns / cheap tricks are user hostile.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >That's not hostile. That's wanting you to use one version over the other user hostile:"A play on the common term "user-friendly", a user-hostile design is one that is, deliberately or accidentally, difficult or cumbersome for the intended user." Yes, I would consider disabling all controls on the mobile page to turn a simple webpage of comments into an ad for the app as "user hostile". A deliberate one, even. >And one "Oh they make me log in to see porn" like really? Really? If they had proper NSFW filters that separated porn from violence from "oh the post had the word 'fuck' in it" from "not even NSFW but the movie is rated R so may as well be safe", I may be inclined to agree. Alas, proper NSFW granularity is another feature long ask for and never given.

bayindirh 3y ago

> It's hostile to parasite companies who make a profit from your product while taking away from your revenue. So, why give cheap/free unlimited API access in the first place? To drive adoption. So, it's EEE, all again. How this is not user, even market hostile?

lambdas 3y ago

That conveniently glosses over the fact that users provide all the content for free, that these “vandals” then moderate 24/7 for free. To say “well, I’m not going to do it if you take away my tools” is entirely fair imo.

that_guy_iain 3y ago
> That conveniently glosses over the fact that users provide all the content for free, that these “vandals” then moderate 24/7 for free. > > To say “well, I’m not going to do it if you take away my tools” is entirely fair imo. No other social platform allows users to moderate. Complaining because a social platform gives you a feature you want but doesn't pay you for using the feature you want is really silly. Then to stop doing it. It's like going to a shop helping them out and then when they decide to stop giving stuff away and try and make a profit you smash up their shop. It's not an acceptable way to act.
- kaba0 3y ago
  It’s not a feature, it’s absolutely essential for any forum, otherwise every second comment would be shitpost. Come on, at least don’t double down if you have zero idea about what does a forum entail.
- basch 3y ago
  >No other social platform allows users to moderate. Facebook Groups?
  - Daneel_ 3y ago
    Discord as well, if you count it as social media.

Aaargh20318 3y ago

> It's hostile to parasite companies who make a profit from your product while taking away from your revenue. Reddit literally profits from other people's content, both user-submitted content and links to 3rd party websites. Reddit as a company provides exactly zero of the content that attracts users.

kaba0 3y ago

Good job eating up their propaganda! There is nothing wrong with asking for money for the API use, if it is a reasonable amount. (Still a bit questionable, as reddit is literally leeching on user-generated content, they themselves provide very little in the equation) But these were clearly meant to stop third-party apps completely — compute is ridiculously cheap, especially when you mostly serve easily cache-able textual data. It’s a shame because it wouldn’t have been hard to make shitton of money while simultaneously riding the good-will of people by offering a subscription-based reddit premium for a few dollars at most for third-party API use.

Terr_ 3y ago
There's also the dishonesty of Reddit's explanation for the money-grab. They claimed it was to curb the large-scale harvesting of content for AI models, but then they abruptly demanded everyone everywhere pay excessive fees regardless of identity or purpose or usage patterns. In contrast, the big and significant actors in that space could have been dissuaded by a terms of service change combined with some rate limits.

mrweasel 3y ago

There is the users that Reddit have, and the users they want. There is an overlap of those two groups, but Reddit seems completely happy to chuck out a subsection of their users, if that means being able to jam more ads down the throat of the remaining users. I think what has happened is that Reddit have looked to Imgur, TikTok, Shorts, Instagram and other social media sites and noticed that Reddit wasn't facilitating doom scrolling in the same way. Reddit users are engaged with the site longer, I'd assume, but see fewer ads, because they remain on the same post. Management would very much like to change that. It's sad, because it shows zero engangement with the site and the users, it just an audience. They're taking their existing product at transforming it to just another scroller app, using the existing users as a means to get the ball rolling.

commandlinefan 3y ago

> I wouldn't say Reddit is user hostile Reddit has been _user_ hostile for over a decade. There's nothing particularly hostile about charging for API access, but that breaks Apollo, which _moderators_ love, which is why we're suddenly actually seeing a backlash.