4 ms·

Biggest army in the world, also the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2. This is something europeans for

by vasco 3y ago

Biggest army in the world, also the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2. This is something europeans forget when complaining about "outsized" US influence but then also don't invest in defense and keep being safe just by the grace of the US. This comes with a price. PS: I'm from europe

calcifer 3y ago
> the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2 That thought is the result of decades of successful US propaganda. The people who actually lived through WW2 in Europe thought different. This poll [1] asked: "In your opinion, which nation contributed the most to Hitler's defeat?" [1] https://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/sondage-nation-contribue-defaite-nazis-2.jpg https://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/sondage...
- vasco 3y ago
  So you agree that somehow the US has a stranglehold on Europe if they were able to make the continent believe what you say is a lie. Maybe you don't think it comes from WW2 or them having the biggest army, but then what is your explanation? Europe bends over just because? The USA has military bases all over Europe with people and missiles. That started with WW2. How would they not have huge influence on what we do? No european country has a random military base in Ohio or whatever.
  - calcifer 3y ago
    > but then what is your explanation? Decades of Holywood propaganda and related American cultural exports. There is a reason the Pentagon gives free access to military equipment to Holywood studios, but only if the military is depicted positively / in a heroic manner.
    - vasco 3y ago
      You think Europe lets the US dictate policy and enforce extradition because of... Hollywood? And not because of the position the US has on the world stage by having the biggest army and the world currency? Because that's the argument I'm making.
      - calcifer 3y ago
        You keep moving goalposts. Your original statement which started this comment chain was that without the US, Europe would be a German dictatorship. That is categorically untrue and is not actually believed by those who survived WW2. I also explained why the perception is changed, even though the facts haven't. From there, you've launched into some unrelated tirade about American military size.
      - undefinedland 3y ago
        In addition to calcifer's arguments, I would suggest you consider that there are multiple aspects of power apart from military. There is financial, economic, cultural, diplomatic and so forth. There is a book called "When Titans Clashed" that may be of interest to you in regards to your statement about "europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2."
  - josephcsible 3y ago
    > No european country has a random military base in Ohio or whatever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_oversea... says that Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Singapore (admittedly not European), and the United Kingdom all have military bases in the US.
    - hmm37 3y ago
      Pretty sure training bases aren't the same as a normal "military" base, but rather to have their troops trained by US soldiers.
- bavell 3y ago
  How many people were asked in each poll and were they all French? Genuinely curious.
  - calcifer 3y ago
    Yes, they were all French. 995 people aged 18 and over. The study is here [1]. [1] https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/3025-1-study_file.pdf https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/3025-1-study...
palata 3y ago
Can you really not think of a single instance where US interventionism was not welcome?
- vasco 3y ago
  Of course I can. I don't like US intervention. But I don't have to pretend there's not an obvious reason why they intervene and why europe "let's them".
bombolo 3y ago
the red army didn't invade Berlin in your alternate universe? Also USA funded terrorism, mafia, in italy… not something to brag about.
- vasco 3y ago
  How many military bases does Russia have in Germany and the rest of europe? How much control does Russia have on europe in terms of enforcing laws, extraditing citizens vs the US? Do you really not see the difference? I don't like the fact that the US has this presence or influence in europe, but it is factual. Why you think stating a fact is braging, I'm not sure.
  - bombolo 3y ago
    Russia had the same until the collapse of USSR. Which has nothing to do with who had a bigger role in fighting the nazis.
    - vasco 3y ago
      Did I make any argument about who had a bigger role? I just made an argument that because of the US's role, and the fact that right now they have the biggest army, that's what allows them to have this influence in laws in europe. Other people started making comparisons with USSR.
      - 542354234235 3y ago
        >also the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2 German soldiers killed on the Eastern Front before the final battles of 1945: 2,742,909. On the Western Front, the Balkans, Africa, Italy, and Northern Europe: 640,541. I'm no mathematician, but but it seems like it wouldn't have been possible without Russians killing over 75% of the German soldiers and then marching on Berlin. Could Europe have have handled the other 25% without the US? Maybe. Could the US have handled the other 75% without Russia? I am very skeptical.
ekianjo 3y ago
Technically Russia has bled a lot more to defeat Germany than the US but I guess you guys see History thru Call of Duty bullshit propaganda
- bavell 3y ago
  Technically only because Russia treats it's troops like disposable cannon fodder and early in the war was sending 2 soldiers for every rifle with the instructions for the second guy to pick up the rifle when the first guy dies.
  - ekianjo 3y ago
    You fight with what you have or dont have
Joeri 3y ago
Germany would have lost to Russia, they were already being beaten back when D-day happened. Europe would have become a communist dictatorship, not a german one.
- 0xBDB 3y ago
  "I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war." - Stalin https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balanc...
floomk 3y ago
[flagged]

by vasco 3y ago

calcifer 3y ago

> the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2 That thought is the result of decades of successful US propaganda. The people who actually lived through WW2 in Europe thought different. This poll [1] asked: "In your opinion, which nation contributed the most to Hitler's defeat?" [1] https://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/sondage-nation-contribue-defaite-nazis-2.jpg https://www.les-crises.fr/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/sondage...

vasco 3y ago
So you agree that somehow the US has a stranglehold on Europe if they were able to make the continent believe what you say is a lie. Maybe you don't think it comes from WW2 or them having the biggest army, but then what is your explanation? Europe bends over just because? The USA has military bases all over Europe with people and missiles. That started with WW2. How would they not have huge influence on what we do? No european country has a random military base in Ohio or whatever.
- calcifer 3y ago
  > but then what is your explanation? Decades of Holywood propaganda and related American cultural exports. There is a reason the Pentagon gives free access to military equipment to Holywood studios, but only if the military is depicted positively / in a heroic manner.
  - vasco 3y ago
    You think Europe lets the US dictate policy and enforce extradition because of... Hollywood? And not because of the position the US has on the world stage by having the biggest army and the world currency? Because that's the argument I'm making.
    - calcifer 3y ago
      You keep moving goalposts. Your original statement which started this comment chain was that without the US, Europe would be a German dictatorship. That is categorically untrue and is not actually believed by those who survived WW2. I also explained why the perception is changed, even though the facts haven't. From there, you've launched into some unrelated tirade about American military size.
    - undefinedland 3y ago
      In addition to calcifer's arguments, I would suggest you consider that there are multiple aspects of power apart from military. There is financial, economic, cultural, diplomatic and so forth. There is a book called "When Titans Clashed" that may be of interest to you in regards to your statement about "europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2."
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > No european country has a random military base in Ohio or whatever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_oversea... says that Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, Singapore (admittedly not European), and the United Kingdom all have military bases in the US.
  - hmm37 3y ago
    Pretty sure training bases aren't the same as a normal "military" base, but rather to have their troops trained by US soldiers.
bavell 3y ago
How many people were asked in each poll and were they all French? Genuinely curious.
- calcifer 3y ago
  Yes, they were all French. 995 people aged 18 and over. The study is here [1]. [1] https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/3025-1-study_file.pdf https://www.ifop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/3025-1-study...

palata 3y ago

Can you really not think of a single instance where US interventionism was not welcome?

vasco 3y ago
Of course I can. I don't like US intervention. But I don't have to pretend there's not an obvious reason why they intervene and why europe "let's them".

bombolo 3y ago

the red army didn't invade Berlin in your alternate universe? Also USA funded terrorism, mafia, in italy… not something to brag about.

vasco 3y ago
How many military bases does Russia have in Germany and the rest of europe? How much control does Russia have on europe in terms of enforcing laws, extraditing citizens vs the US? Do you really not see the difference? I don't like the fact that the US has this presence or influence in europe, but it is factual. Why you think stating a fact is braging, I'm not sure.
- bombolo 3y ago
  Russia had the same until the collapse of USSR. Which has nothing to do with who had a bigger role in fighting the nazis.
  - vasco 3y ago
    Did I make any argument about who had a bigger role? I just made an argument that because of the US's role, and the fact that right now they have the biggest army, that's what allows them to have this influence in laws in europe. Other people started making comparisons with USSR.
    - 542354234235 3y ago
      >also the only reason most of europe has freedom today and not a german dictatorship is the US in WW2 German soldiers killed on the Eastern Front before the final battles of 1945: 2,742,909. On the Western Front, the Balkans, Africa, Italy, and Northern Europe: 640,541. I'm no mathematician, but but it seems like it wouldn't have been possible without Russians killing over 75% of the German soldiers and then marching on Berlin. Could Europe have have handled the other 25% without the US? Maybe. Could the US have handled the other 75% without Russia? I am very skeptical.

ekianjo 3y ago

Technically Russia has bled a lot more to defeat Germany than the US but I guess you guys see History thru Call of Duty bullshit propaganda

bavell 3y ago
Technically only because Russia treats it's troops like disposable cannon fodder and early in the war was sending 2 soldiers for every rifle with the instructions for the second guy to pick up the rifle when the first guy dies.
- ekianjo 3y ago
  You fight with what you have or dont have

Joeri 3y ago

Germany would have lost to Russia, they were already being beaten back when D-day happened. Europe would have become a communist dictatorship, not a german one.

0xBDB 3y ago
"I want to tell you what, from the Russian point of view, the president and the United States have done for victory in this war," Stalin said. "The most important things in this war are the machines.... The United States is a country of machines. Without the machines we received through Lend-Lease, we would have lost the war." - Stalin https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balance-in-soviet-fight-against-nazi-germany/30599486.html https://www.rferl.org/a/did-us-lend-lease-aid-tip-the-balanc...

floomk 3y ago

[flagged]