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> "Pay us! Or we kill the planet!" Well it used to be "Pay us! And we kill the planet!" My opinion is that the "or" operator is an improvement over the old. I

> "Pay us! Or we kill the planet!" Well it used to be "Pay us! And we kill the planet!" My opinion is that the "or" operator is an improvement over the old. It implies that there is a chance to save the planet. >My vote is for nationalizing all the fossil fuel companies This will have exactly the opposite effect as you are envisioning. Having every citizen benefit from fossil fuels will make them much harder to keep in the ground. If you haven't already done so, read Kim Stanley Robinson's article on this topic: https://www.noemamag.com/paying-ourselves-to-decarbonize/ https://www.noemamag.com/paying-ourselves-to-decarbonize/

specialist 3y ago
> ...will have exactly the opposite effect as you are envisioning. Sure. Or not. At some point, like with coal before it, oil's price will fall thru the floor. What then? The fate of the countries listed will vary. Foreseeing the inevitable, some of the Gulf States and Norway have been diversifying for a while. China is racing to create the post carbon future, hoping to outrun the bear. Russia is choosing oblivion. The others will fall somewhere in between. Or in the schizophrenic USA, somewhere(s). > read Kim Stanley Robinson's article Ok, have done. Meh. Aside: "The Ministry for the Future" presents an absolutely best case scenario, in all its terribleness. Pretty unconvincing. There's no reactionary movement actively thwarting progress, no emergent right wing eco-fascism. Technological progress always begets social upheaval. Globe spanning wars were fought over much lower stakes (than climate crisis). That said, I have no idea how any of this will play out. Can't even guess. But I expect the worse. And I'm an optimist.
- intrasight 3y ago
  > But I expect the worse. And I'm an optimist. Same. That KSR article just made me more pessimistic about fossil fuels. Politicians in the West need to quickly show some leadership towards a carbon tax.

specialist 3y ago

> ...will have exactly the opposite effect as you are envisioning. Sure. Or not. At some point, like with coal before it, oil's price will fall thru the floor. What then? The fate of the countries listed will vary. Foreseeing the inevitable, some of the Gulf States and Norway have been diversifying for a while. China is racing to create the post carbon future, hoping to outrun the bear. Russia is choosing oblivion. The others will fall somewhere in between. Or in the schizophrenic USA, somewhere(s). > read Kim Stanley Robinson's article Ok, have done. Meh. Aside: "The Ministry for the Future" presents an absolutely best case scenario, in all its terribleness. Pretty unconvincing. There's no reactionary movement actively thwarting progress, no emergent right wing eco-fascism. Technological progress always begets social upheaval. Globe spanning wars were fought over much lower stakes (than climate crisis). That said, I have no idea how any of this will play out. Can't even guess. But I expect the worse. And I'm an optimist.

intrasight 3y ago
> But I expect the worse. And I'm an optimist. Same. That KSR article just made me more pessimistic about fossil fuels. Politicians in the West need to quickly show some leadership towards a carbon tax.