4 ms·

Can't we just run an existing dam in reverse to store energy?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Batteries can be installed anywhere and Tesla produces 40GWh/year of them in their California Megapack facility. Pumped hydro is geography constrained, and while you could spend the money to possibly pump hydro back up hill, batteries provide more flexibility at a similar price point. https://www.tesla.com/megafactory https://www.tesla.com/megafactory
- izacus 3y ago
  I'd live to see any kind of quotes for your funny claims considering the fact that pump hydro storage is by far the most mass efficient energy storage we have. (Preferably not by a company that tries to sell more batteries for their profit.)
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/20170620_FINAL_ExpCurves_Main.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/201... (pumped hydro cost in green on page 3 and 5 charts) https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storage-now-and-later-utilities-prepare-exponential-growth https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storag... https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... (Page 15 on for battery storage costs) TLDR Batteries get cheaper before your pumped hydro at scale gets built. It’s what’s playing out in Australia with “Snowy 2” currently. Similar to how you could never build nuclear as fast as solar (almost free at utility scale) and batteries, not as cheap (based on experience curves). Batteries also provide grid services (maintaining voltage and/or frequency) within hundreds of milliseconds of detecting an anomaly, which simply isn’t possible with spinning mass due to inertia. This provides valuable grid services revenue (distinct from energy arbitrage). https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than-battery-storage/ https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-australia-cost-savings/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-austra...
    - abc_lisper 3y ago
      Yeah, was talking about pumping water up an existing installation. Looks like it is already used - 94% of all stored energy in US now comes from hydro, according to your link 2. ATM, it is cheaper too
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Citation why batteries are superior to hydro for storage: https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/14/old-ev-batteries-store-solar-power-california-desert/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/14/old-ev-batteries-stor...

Batteries can be installed anywhere and Tesla produces 40GWh/year of them in their California Megapack facility. Pumped hydro is geography constrained, and while you could spend the money to possibly pump hydro back up hill, batteries provide more flexibility at a similar price point. https://www.tesla.com/megafactory https://www.tesla.com/megafactory

izacus 3y ago
I'd live to see any kind of quotes for your funny claims considering the fact that pump hydro storage is by far the most mass efficient energy storage we have. (Preferably not by a company that tries to sell more batteries for their profit.)
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/20170620_FINAL_ExpCurves_Main.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/201... (pumped hydro cost in green on page 3 and 5 charts) https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storage-now-and-later-utilities-prepare-exponential-growth https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storag... https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... (Page 15 on for battery storage costs) TLDR Batteries get cheaper before your pumped hydro at scale gets built. It’s what’s playing out in Australia with “Snowy 2” currently. Similar to how you could never build nuclear as fast as solar (almost free at utility scale) and batteries, not as cheap (based on experience curves). Batteries also provide grid services (maintaining voltage and/or frequency) within hundreds of milliseconds of detecting an anomaly, which simply isn’t possible with spinning mass due to inertia. This provides valuable grid services revenue (distinct from energy arbitrage). https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than-battery-storage/ https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-australia-cost-savings/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-austra...
  - abc_lisper 3y ago
    Yeah, was talking about pumping water up an existing installation. Looks like it is already used - 94% of all stored energy in US now comes from hydro, according to your link 2. ATM, it is cheaper too
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Citation why batteries are superior to hydro for storage: https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/14/old-ev-batteries-store-solar-power-california-desert/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/07/14/old-ev-batteries-stor...