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California Ramps Up Enough Battery Power to Match Five Nukes

9 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago
https://archive.li/OrMZ5 https://archive.li/OrMZ5
CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
"five nukes" lol
- lesuorac 3y ago
  > The state now has enough large-scale batteries to supply 5,600 megawatts of electricity, up from 500 megawatts in 2020, the California Independent System Operator reported Tuesday. Nuclear reactors typically generate 1,000 megawatts apiece Do people really shorten nuclear reactors to nukes?
  - exabrial 3y ago
    "nuke-u-luhr" Yes
abc_lisper 3y ago
Can't we just run an existing dam in reverse to store energy?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Batteries can be installed anywhere and Tesla produces 40GWh/year of them in their California Megapack facility. Pumped hydro is geography constrained, and while you could spend the money to possibly pump hydro back up hill, batteries provide more flexibility at a similar price point. https://www.tesla.com/megafactory https://www.tesla.com/megafactory
  - izacus 3y ago
    I'd live to see any kind of quotes for your funny claims considering the fact that pump hydro storage is by far the most mass efficient energy storage we have. (Preferably not by a company that tries to sell more batteries for their profit.)
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/20170620_FINAL_ExpCurves_Main.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/201... (pumped hydro cost in green on page 3 and 5 charts) https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storage-now-and-later-utilities-prepare-exponential-growth https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storag... https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... (Page 15 on for battery storage costs) TLDR Batteries get cheaper before your pumped hydro at scale gets built. It’s what’s playing out in Australia with “Snowy 2” currently. Similar to how you could never build nuclear as fast as solar (almost free at utility scale) and batteries, not as cheap (based on experience curves). Batteries also provide grid services (maintaining voltage and/or frequency) within hundreds of milliseconds of detecting an anomaly, which simply isn’t possible with spinning mass due to inertia. This provides valuable grid services revenue (distinct from energy arbitrage). https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than-battery-storage/ https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-australia-cost-savings/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-austra...
      - abc_lisper 3y ago
        Yeah, was talking about pumping water up an existing installation. Looks like it is already used - 94% of all stored energy in US now comes from hydro, according to your link 2. ATM, it is cheaper too
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
exabrial 3y ago
This is like saying "California purchased enough flashlights for one sunlight beam". Nonsensical at best, but shows a lack of even a high-school level of physics education on Unit comparison and conversion. 5 "nukes" eh? > The state now has enough large-scale batteries to supply 5,600 megawatts of electricity Last I checked, batteries are measured in watt-hours. Ope, I just rechecked, they still are. Technically my car battery could produce 5,600 megawatts. Granted it might only do that for a femtosecond, but thats the whole point: 5,600 megawatts for _how long_? One minute, one hour? Also last I checked, the Boobs by the Sea produced 2,200 megawatts of power. That [nearly] continuous power, not "until muh batteries run out". Yes yes, ramp up times, blah blah, refueling, ::hand waving::, xenon poisoning, ::more hand waving:: So congrats, 5.6gw of power storage _is_ awesome, but it's not "5 nukes" any more than 5 apples are the same as three lasers. I'm 100% behind these storage projects as they reduce the need for "peaker plants", but come on, lets at least a high schooler review these articles for scientific accuracy before going to press.
- sdflhasjd 3y ago
  I can't read the whole article as it's paywalled, but source of the claim comes from CAISO, and they've referring to 5GW of actual network capacity for "up to four hours" http://www.caiso.com/Documents/new-storage-milestone-reached-for-the-california-grid-more-than-5000-mw-now-available-for-dispatch.pdf http://www.caiso.com/Documents/new-storage-milestone-reached... This is actually a serious amount of power storage > Technically my car battery could produce 5,600 megawatts Technically it can't
  - aydyn 3y ago
    It sure can, you just make it explode.
  - exabrial 3y ago
    prove it. The rest mass compels you.
YeBanKo 3y ago
Batteries are for storage, reactors are for energy production. Weird comparison.

9 points by mfiguiere 3y ago

toomuchtodo 3y ago

https://archive.li/OrMZ5 https://archive.li/OrMZ5

CrzyLngPwd 3y ago

"five nukes" lol

lesuorac 3y ago
> The state now has enough large-scale batteries to supply 5,600 megawatts of electricity, up from 500 megawatts in 2020, the California Independent System Operator reported Tuesday. Nuclear reactors typically generate 1,000 megawatts apiece Do people really shorten nuclear reactors to nukes?
- exabrial 3y ago
  "nuke-u-luhr" Yes

abc_lisper 3y ago

Can't we just run an existing dam in reverse to store energy?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Batteries can be installed anywhere and Tesla produces 40GWh/year of them in their California Megapack facility. Pumped hydro is geography constrained, and while you could spend the money to possibly pump hydro back up hill, batteries provide more flexibility at a similar price point. https://www.tesla.com/megafactory https://www.tesla.com/megafactory
- izacus 3y ago
  I'd live to see any kind of quotes for your funny claims considering the fact that pump hydro storage is by far the most mass efficient energy storage we have. (Preferably not by a company that tries to sell more batteries for their profit.)
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/20170620_FINAL_ExpCurves_Main.pdf https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/50848/10/201... (pumped hydro cost in green on page 3 and 5 charts) https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storage-now-and-later-utilities-prepare-exponential-growth https://www.publicpower.org/periodical/article/energy-storag... https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april-2023.pdf https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... (Page 15 on for battery storage costs) TLDR Batteries get cheaper before your pumped hydro at scale gets built. It’s what’s playing out in Australia with “Snowy 2” currently. Similar to how you could never build nuclear as fast as solar (almost free at utility scale) and batteries, not as cheap (based on experience curves). Batteries also provide grid services (maintaining voltage and/or frequency) within hundreds of milliseconds of detecting an anomaly, which simply isn’t possible with spinning mass due to inertia. This provides valuable grid services revenue (distinct from energy arbitrage). https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than-battery-storage/ https://www.eqmagpro.com/snowy-hydro-2-0-more-expensive-than... https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-australia-cost-savings/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-big-battery-hornsdale-austra...
    - abc_lisper 3y ago
      Yeah, was talking about pumping water up an existing installation. Looks like it is already used - 94% of all stored energy in US now comes from hydro, according to your link 2. ATM, it is cheaper too
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]

exabrial 3y ago

This is like saying "California purchased enough flashlights for one sunlight beam". Nonsensical at best, but shows a lack of even a high-school level of physics education on Unit comparison and conversion. 5 "nukes" eh? > The state now has enough large-scale batteries to supply 5,600 megawatts of electricity Last I checked, batteries are measured in watt-hours. Ope, I just rechecked, they still are. Technically my car battery could produce 5,600 megawatts. Granted it might only do that for a femtosecond, but thats the whole point: 5,600 megawatts for _how long_? One minute, one hour? Also last I checked, the Boobs by the Sea produced 2,200 megawatts of power. That [nearly] continuous power, not "until muh batteries run out". Yes yes, ramp up times, blah blah, refueling, ::hand waving::, xenon poisoning, ::more hand waving:: So congrats, 5.6gw of power storage _is_ awesome, but it's not "5 nukes" any more than 5 apples are the same as three lasers. I'm 100% behind these storage projects as they reduce the need for "peaker plants", but come on, lets at least a high schooler review these articles for scientific accuracy before going to press.

sdflhasjd 3y ago
I can't read the whole article as it's paywalled, but source of the claim comes from CAISO, and they've referring to 5GW of actual network capacity for "up to four hours" http://www.caiso.com/Documents/new-storage-milestone-reached-for-the-california-grid-more-than-5000-mw-now-available-for-dispatch.pdf http://www.caiso.com/Documents/new-storage-milestone-reached... This is actually a serious amount of power storage > Technically my car battery could produce 5,600 megawatts Technically it can't
- aydyn 3y ago
  It sure can, you just make it explode.
- exabrial 3y ago
  prove it. The rest mass compels you.

YeBanKo 3y ago

Batteries are for storage, reactors are for energy production. Weird comparison.