3 ms·

> This doesn't have to be a dichotomy. How not? There is an inevitable clash of rights when it comes to protected spaces and who is permitted where.

mcv 3y ago
Why? Why does this have to be a problem? As far as I can tell, it's an entirely manufactured problem. For political purposes, to vilify a vulnerable group for electoral gain among bigots and stir up transphobia.
- didcote 3y ago
  Here's an example of the issue at hand: https://www.womensforumaustralia.org/tribunal_says_men_who_identify_as_lesbians_cannot_be_excluded_from_lesbian_events https://www.womensforumaustralia.org/tribunal_says_men_who_i... A group of lesbian women want to hold female-only events, but they're not permitted by law to exclude the heterosexual males who call themselves lesbian women. Similar conflicts apply to most other women's spaces, between the women who want to maintain these spaces as female-only, and the males who want to gain access to these spaces on the basis that they identify themselves as women or female.
  - mcv 3y ago
    Do we need to distinguish between transgender women and men who identify as women for the purpose of gaining access to female-only spaces? Because it does sometimes sound like there are predatory men who see this as some sort of loophole. That obviously needs to be stopped. To me, it seems the obvious criterium is: have you transitioned? I don't think that's an unreasonable standard, although it can be hurtful to transgenders who are still transitioning and eager to finally get accepted for who they are. In cases of single-gender events, it also depends on what the exact reason is for making it single gender. There are fuzzy edges around gender, and if you're going to draw a line somewhere, it doesn't hurt to stop and think about why and where exactly you're going to draw it.
    - didcote 3y ago
      In such situations, how does one distinguish a male with bad intentions from the others, though? That they may insist on access to spaces they know are intended to be female-only, despite being well aware that many women are uncomfortable with this male imposition, is already an indicator of dubious intention. Perhaps not directly predatory, but certainly a violation of boundaries. I don't think that an advanced stage of transition can broadly override this, in reality. Becoming a modern type of eunuch isn't the same as actually being a woman. It seems unreasonable to compel women to accept these as being equivalent.

mcv 3y ago

Why? Why does this have to be a problem? As far as I can tell, it's an entirely manufactured problem. For political purposes, to vilify a vulnerable group for electoral gain among bigots and stir up transphobia.

didcote 3y ago
Here's an example of the issue at hand: https://www.womensforumaustralia.org/tribunal_says_men_who_identify_as_lesbians_cannot_be_excluded_from_lesbian_events https://www.womensforumaustralia.org/tribunal_says_men_who_i... A group of lesbian women want to hold female-only events, but they're not permitted by law to exclude the heterosexual males who call themselves lesbian women. Similar conflicts apply to most other women's spaces, between the women who want to maintain these spaces as female-only, and the males who want to gain access to these spaces on the basis that they identify themselves as women or female.
- mcv 3y ago
  Do we need to distinguish between transgender women and men who identify as women for the purpose of gaining access to female-only spaces? Because it does sometimes sound like there are predatory men who see this as some sort of loophole. That obviously needs to be stopped. To me, it seems the obvious criterium is: have you transitioned? I don't think that's an unreasonable standard, although it can be hurtful to transgenders who are still transitioning and eager to finally get accepted for who they are. In cases of single-gender events, it also depends on what the exact reason is for making it single gender. There are fuzzy edges around gender, and if you're going to draw a line somewhere, it doesn't hurt to stop and think about why and where exactly you're going to draw it.
  - didcote 3y ago
    In such situations, how does one distinguish a male with bad intentions from the others, though? That they may insist on access to spaces they know are intended to be female-only, despite being well aware that many women are uncomfortable with this male imposition, is already an indicator of dubious intention. Perhaps not directly predatory, but certainly a violation of boundaries. I don't think that an advanced stage of transition can broadly override this, in reality. Becoming a modern type of eunuch isn't the same as actually being a woman. It seems unreasonable to compel women to accept these as being equivalent.