8 ms·

No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because o

No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. If there is one good thing about web apps, it’s that browsers are now the application run time and browsers are more cross platform than any software libraries that have come before it. The only area I wish had a better story was the enterprise desktop space (like Windows domains or jamf on macOS) but currently I can’t justify allowing my team to run Linux because having its hard enough for small companies to manage a mixture of macOS and Windows fleets without adding a 3rd platform into the mix.

hgomersall 3y ago
I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS I tell them to use. It's called "my choice".
Nux 3y ago
Adobe (and others) wants a word with you.
aktenlage 3y ago
> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. If there is one good thing about web apps, it’s that browsers are now the application run time and browsers are more cross platform than any software libraries that have come before it. The danger that the history will repeat for browsers instead of OSs is real. The less market share for browsers other than Google Chrome or Chrome-based ones, the more likely it is, that we will be forced to use those because of incompatible web applications. E.g. at work, using a Linux Computer, I switched to Chrome for Teams and Outlook, because of compatibility issues.
- pluijzer 3y ago
  Did you try setting your User Agent to Chrome? I have to use Teams for work. Under Firefox it has problems and missing features, setting my user agent to Chrome solves all of it. Highly uncompetitive if you ask me.
  - scns 3y ago
    Thank you. That tip might lessen my need to use Brave for sites only working in Chrome.
    - askiiart 3y ago
      Also, pro tip: copying the most popular user-agent string gives you a bit of extra protection against fingerprinting. As of the time of writing, the most populated user-agent string is this: "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/114.0.0.0 Safari/537.36" Source: https://techblog.willshouse.com/2012/01/03/most-common-user-agents/ https://techblog.willshouse.com/2012/01/03/most-common-user-...
  - jkaplowitz 3y ago
    To me that sounds more like bad software dev/test procedures at MS than anything intentionally uncompetitive. For example, maybe they don’t keep their Firefox support up to date because not enough Teams users use Firefox to warrant the effort, but maybe Firefox is increasingly Chrome-compatible. Firefox is not popular enough for MS to intentionally cripple.
dna_polymerase 3y ago
> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. What? This is very real and a key driver not to use Linux or Mac for millions of users. As soon as even a little performance is required webapps just can't compare. Look at anything graphics related especially 3d, CAD or video. You might be able to build shitty infographics for Instagram on Canva but real work still requires access to compute at the edge and most software providers in those spaces target Microsoft only.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
DeathArrow 3y ago
> If there is one good thing about web apps, it’s that browsers are now the application run time and browsers are more cross platform than any software libraries that have come before it. I'd take every day a native app running locally over a web app. And I am a web developer.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
  I have a native app (VS) and a web app (VSC) running side by side on my computer, its like an adult vs 7y old.
  - KronisLV 3y ago
    > I have a native app (VS) and a web app (VSC) running side by side on my computer, its like an adult vs 7y old. Honestly, VSC is pretty decent due to all of the engineering MS put into it. Brackets and Atom both were way slower and had noticeable input lag, at least for me. Other people have also looked into things like that: https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ Personally, something like Notepad++ or Lazarus always felt the fastest to me. Software like JetBrains IDEs, their Fleet editor, Visual Studio and even Visual Studio code all had noticeable hiccups but always seemed "fast enough". Even when the typing itself was okay, there'd be stuff like autocomplete delays/stuttering and refactoring slowdown, but nothing too annoying. In contrast, Brackets, Atom, working through SSH, remote sessions through RDP/VNC or any device that lagged due to being underpowered always was annoying slow and disruptive.
- holoduke 3y ago
  Not anymore. Last gen phones have enough performance to run webapps without a single loss in performance, look and feel compared to native apps. Native apps will remain, but you see more and more SPAs wrapped in a hybrid app still maintaining a 'native'look. Costs of developing webapps is dramatically lower. Although native knowledge is still required for Auth, billing, advertising and other required native stuff.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
globular-toast 3y ago
Only if said OS exists. It does require a critical mass of users otherwise drivers wouldn't exist for desktop hardware and distros wouldn't exist. We're just lucky that the critical mass is actually quite low.
jacquesm 3y ago
> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. That's a funny conclusion to make. In the business world that still exists and even my kids are forced into the Microsoft eco-system by their school because the software they insist you run (for which perfectly good web alternatives exist) only runs on windows.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  True, but increasingly marginal. Many schools have adopted Chromebooks (Linux in disguise) and even the MS Office suite has largely moved online.
  - cmilton 3y ago
    I agree. Google Classroom exploded during the pandemic in my local school systems. Enterprises are moving to Workspace from 365. I hope they drive each other's prices to the bottom. :)
    - sbuk 3y ago
      "Enterprises are moving to Workspace from 365" not in any meaningful numbers.
      - cmilton 3y ago
        > not in any meaningful numbers. While I agree, it has to start somewhere. As a customer of both, I appreciate the competition from 1-2% per year[0] growth. [0]https://blogs.gartner.com/craig-roth/2022/08/02/market-share-for-office-productivity-published/ https://blogs.gartner.com/craig-roth/2022/08/02/market-share...
    - DrThunder 3y ago
      Nah... We've had Workspace for a long time and there are still users that adamantly refuse to use Google Apps over MS. They actually have good reasons as well. Since Google just has web apps only there's always extra steps uploading all the office docs they get from other businesses. We tried blowing Office 2013 away on everyone's machines after being told most users didn't think they needed it. Now, a few months later 90% of our users have asked for a 365 license. What typically happens from what I can tell is that most businesses just end up having a mix of both 365 and Workspace.
chx 3y ago
> That doesn’t really exist any more. But the lack of driver support still does. Linux on a modern laptop is just full of headaches. I mean, https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u this is typical: GNOME doesn't work, graphical glitches... In my own experience, operating MFC devices over several years is a nightmare, Bluetooth is problematic as well, some proprietary VPNs do not have Linux clients which might not be Linux's fault but if I can't log in I can't work. Life is too short for this, sorry. Windows + WSL is the way. The right tool for the right job, Windows for drivers, WSL for, well, everything else.
- trelane 3y ago
  > I mean, https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u So, they took a cutting edge Windows PC, slapped Linux on it, and it didn't work well. How well did OSX do when they tried it? Clearly, OSX isn't ready for the desktop! No wonder nobody runs it! Modern computers are complex enough that they can work well with Windows, OSX, or Linux, but they don't work well with more than one of them (unless the designers work really hard). See, for example, how to reboot: https://mjg59.livejournal.com/137313.html https://mjg59.livejournal.com/137313.html If you want to run Linux on a computer, buy it preinstalled, with support. Anything else is an exercise in chasing down small glitches, as you describe. (This happens for Windows too! The difference is that the laptop vendor has a team of people (the system integration team) to fix the issues, either by modifying drivers, modifying the firmware, or having the ODM change the hardware. If you slap Linux on some random bit of Windows kit, you get to be the system integration team, but with only one of three avenues open to you to fix the glitches. And that only halfway, since you cant get the OEM or ODM to give you the time of day. And that's assuming you're a proficient kernel hacker.) Slapping Linux on a Windows box is a mug's game. The only way to win is not to play.
  - hparadiz 3y ago
    So true. If you get a System76 laptop you can get some really amazing hardware and make sure to never pay the Windows license fee.
juujian 3y ago
Oh, the lock in still exists. In many fields. You need a certain software to be competitive, so you have to use whatever os supports it. I know people who have switched from Mac os to windows because office is slightly janky on Mac os. Lock ins happen all the time.
- Kye 3y ago
  There's also a thing where software supports Mac and Windows, but really needs a lot of memory and storage, so the absurd markups Apple went back to charging in the Apple silicon era make it unviable for all but the most profitable workloads. I looked into Apple when laptop shopping recently, but couldn't justify or afford the markup to get the storage and memory I can put in the laptop I went with for a fraction of the cost.
  - pokerface_86 3y ago
    [dead]
coldtea 3y ago
>No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice That was the case in 1999 too. The Linux on the Desktop dream wasn't about removing choice, but about MORE people making the choice to run Linux. Also, market share translates to support, resources available, people and companies working there, drivers, and so on. Personal choice to use X doesn't magically offer those.
azangru 3y ago
> No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. But I can't use the OS I like. I can't go in a store, pick a laptop I like, and get it with an OS I like. I can get it with an OS I don't like; and gamble that I can install on it an OS that I do like. It would have been very different if Linux market share on the desktop were in double digits.
- everdrive 3y ago
  This is a wholly valid point when it comes to Linux desktop penetration. However as an aside, it seems to me that the computers for sale in actual stores are usually of terrible quality. They’re the last the computers I would choose, and this isn’t really a Windows or ChromeOS thing. (I’d just wipe them and install Linux in any case) This doesn’t detract from your point at all, but it just seems like the most-available computers are the ones companies _want_ to sell rather than the computers that savvy consumers _want_ to buy.
  - azangru 3y ago
    I agree, and am sad to observe that it is very different with Apple, where laptops available on display in a physical Apple store are often the ones a savvy customer would want to buy.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]
zamalek 3y ago
> I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. That's a strange point to make. The whole point of this users changing their minds, and deciding that they prefer Linux. > I can’t justify allowing my team to run Linux So it's not about choice then?
peepee1982 3y ago
I'm sure as hell locked in. Linux Desktop doesn't even remotely come close to offer the things I ask out of a PC (high quality music production and image editing). On the other hand, both Windows and macOS do. And let's not even get started about work.
- q87b 3y ago
  Both these things are very well possible on Linux. Maybe you are more concerned about specific applications which have not been ported by their developers?
- bannedbybros 3y ago
  [dead]
- Luctct 3y ago
  I have run high quality music production software on Linux. It was Windows software, that runs thanks to Wine. It works and it's even better than native applications because native applications expire when a distro version is discontinued and the application is not packaged for the current version. Windows applications installed in Wine never expire. Wine is Linux, Linux does the job. And high quality image editing is possible, though it's probably done differently from whatever you're used to. There are plenty of graphic artists making their work on Linux and bragging about it. So "doesn't even remotely come close" is either a lie or a display of your ignorance.
  - simooooo 3y ago
    Can you use iLok on Linux/wine?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  I know quite a few graphic artists and musical engineers who use Linux professionally. I think the difference, really, is which tools you're used to using. There aren't really any Linux tools for these sorts of things that work the same as the tools for Windows, so if you're expert with one, you still have a rather large learning curve if you want to use the other. That can be prohibitive.
Luctct 3y ago
What a joke. Web standards move under our feet -- and browsers break -- all the time. I personally work for a company that forces me to work online and only pretends to support Linux. They say I have to use the latest version of Chrome (so I can't choose a browser that won't spy on me), I use it and it still breaks occasionally. I know they count on everybody using Windows and don't want to bother with Linux. So much for cross-platform. That pipe dream was proven false years ago.

hgomersall 3y ago

I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS I tell them to use. It's called "my choice".

Nux 3y ago

Adobe (and others) wants a word with you.

aktenlage 3y ago

> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. If there is one good thing about web apps, it’s that browsers are now the application run time and browsers are more cross platform than any software libraries that have come before it. The danger that the history will repeat for browsers instead of OSs is real. The less market share for browsers other than Google Chrome or Chrome-based ones, the more likely it is, that we will be forced to use those because of incompatible web applications. E.g. at work, using a Linux Computer, I switched to Chrome for Teams and Outlook, because of compatibility issues.

pluijzer 3y ago
Did you try setting your User Agent to Chrome? I have to use Teams for work. Under Firefox it has problems and missing features, setting my user agent to Chrome solves all of it. Highly uncompetitive if you ask me.
- scns 3y ago
  Thank you. That tip might lessen my need to use Brave for sites only working in Chrome.
  - askiiart 3y ago
    Also, pro tip: copying the most popular user-agent string gives you a bit of extra protection against fingerprinting. As of the time of writing, the most populated user-agent string is this: "Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) Chrome/114.0.0.0 Safari/537.36" Source: https://techblog.willshouse.com/2012/01/03/most-common-user-agents/ https://techblog.willshouse.com/2012/01/03/most-common-user-...
- jkaplowitz 3y ago
  To me that sounds more like bad software dev/test procedures at MS than anything intentionally uncompetitive. For example, maybe they don’t keep their Firefox support up to date because not enough Teams users use Firefox to warrant the effort, but maybe Firefox is increasingly Chrome-compatible. Firefox is not popular enough for MS to intentionally cripple.

dna_polymerase 3y ago

> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. What? This is very real and a key driver not to use Linux or Mac for millions of users. As soon as even a little performance is required webapps just can't compare. Look at anything graphics related especially 3d, CAD or video. You might be able to build shitty infographics for Instagram on Canva but real work still requires access to compute at the edge and most software providers in those spaces target Microsoft only.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

DeathArrow 3y ago

> If there is one good thing about web apps, it’s that browsers are now the application run time and browsers are more cross platform than any software libraries that have come before it. I'd take every day a native app running locally over a web app. And I am a web developer.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 3y ago
I have a native app (VS) and a web app (VSC) running side by side on my computer, its like an adult vs 7y old.
- KronisLV 3y ago
  > I have a native app (VS) and a web app (VSC) running side by side on my computer, its like an adult vs 7y old. Honestly, VSC is pretty decent due to all of the engineering MS put into it. Brackets and Atom both were way slower and had noticeable input lag, at least for me. Other people have also looked into things like that: https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ https://pavelfatin.com/typing-with-pleasure/ Personally, something like Notepad++ or Lazarus always felt the fastest to me. Software like JetBrains IDEs, their Fleet editor, Visual Studio and even Visual Studio code all had noticeable hiccups but always seemed "fast enough". Even when the typing itself was okay, there'd be stuff like autocomplete delays/stuttering and refactoring slowdown, but nothing too annoying. In contrast, Brackets, Atom, working through SSH, remote sessions through RDP/VNC or any device that lagged due to being underpowered always was annoying slow and disruptive.
holoduke 3y ago
Not anymore. Last gen phones have enough performance to run webapps without a single loss in performance, look and feel compared to native apps. Native apps will remain, but you see more and more SPAs wrapped in a hybrid app still maintaining a 'native'look. Costs of developing webapps is dramatically lower. Although native knowledge is still required for Auth, billing, advertising and other required native stuff.
- jacquesm 3y ago

globular-toast 3y ago

Only if said OS exists. It does require a critical mass of users otherwise drivers wouldn't exist for desktop hardware and distros wouldn't exist. We're just lucky that the critical mass is actually quite low.

jacquesm 3y ago

> What stung before was that people were forced to use Windows because of lock-ins, software compatibility, etc. That doesn’t really exist any more. That's a funny conclusion to make. In the business world that still exists and even my kids are forced into the Microsoft eco-system by their school because the software they insist you run (for which perfectly good web alternatives exist) only runs on windows.

resolutebat 3y ago
True, but increasingly marginal. Many schools have adopted Chromebooks (Linux in disguise) and even the MS Office suite has largely moved online.
- cmilton 3y ago
  I agree. Google Classroom exploded during the pandemic in my local school systems. Enterprises are moving to Workspace from 365. I hope they drive each other's prices to the bottom. :)
  - sbuk 3y ago
    "Enterprises are moving to Workspace from 365" not in any meaningful numbers.
    - cmilton 3y ago
      > not in any meaningful numbers. While I agree, it has to start somewhere. As a customer of both, I appreciate the competition from 1-2% per year[0] growth. [0]https://blogs.gartner.com/craig-roth/2022/08/02/market-share-for-office-productivity-published/ https://blogs.gartner.com/craig-roth/2022/08/02/market-share...
  - DrThunder 3y ago
    Nah... We've had Workspace for a long time and there are still users that adamantly refuse to use Google Apps over MS. They actually have good reasons as well. Since Google just has web apps only there's always extra steps uploading all the office docs they get from other businesses. We tried blowing Office 2013 away on everyone's machines after being told most users didn't think they needed it. Now, a few months later 90% of our users have asked for a 365 license. What typically happens from what I can tell is that most businesses just end up having a mix of both 365 and Workspace.

chx 3y ago

> That doesn’t really exist any more. But the lack of driver support still does. Linux on a modern laptop is just full of headaches. I mean, https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u this is typical: GNOME doesn't work, graphical glitches... In my own experience, operating MFC devices over several years is a nightmare, Bluetooth is problematic as well, some proprietary VPNs do not have Linux clients which might not be Linux's fault but if I can't log in I can't work. Life is too short for this, sorry. Windows + WSL is the way. The right tool for the right job, Windows for drivers, WSL for, well, everything else.

trelane 3y ago
> I mean, https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u https://www.phoronix.com/review/amd-ryzen7-7840u So, they took a cutting edge Windows PC, slapped Linux on it, and it didn't work well. How well did OSX do when they tried it? Clearly, OSX isn't ready for the desktop! No wonder nobody runs it! Modern computers are complex enough that they can work well with Windows, OSX, or Linux, but they don't work well with more than one of them (unless the designers work really hard). See, for example, how to reboot: https://mjg59.livejournal.com/137313.html https://mjg59.livejournal.com/137313.html If you want to run Linux on a computer, buy it preinstalled, with support. Anything else is an exercise in chasing down small glitches, as you describe. (This happens for Windows too! The difference is that the laptop vendor has a team of people (the system integration team) to fix the issues, either by modifying drivers, modifying the firmware, or having the ODM change the hardware. If you slap Linux on some random bit of Windows kit, you get to be the system integration team, but with only one of three avenues open to you to fix the glitches. And that only halfway, since you cant get the OEM or ODM to give you the time of day. And that's assuming you're a proficient kernel hacker.) Slapping Linux on a Windows box is a mug's game. The only way to win is not to play.
- hparadiz 3y ago
  So true. If you get a System76 laptop you can get some really amazing hardware and make sure to never pay the Windows license fee.

juujian 3y ago

Oh, the lock in still exists. In many fields. You need a certain software to be competitive, so you have to use whatever os supports it. I know people who have switched from Mac os to windows because office is slightly janky on Mac os. Lock ins happen all the time.

Kye 3y ago
There's also a thing where software supports Mac and Windows, but really needs a lot of memory and storage, so the absurd markups Apple went back to charging in the Apple silicon era make it unviable for all but the most profitable workloads. I looked into Apple when laptop shopping recently, but couldn't justify or afford the markup to get the storage and memory I can put in the laptop I went with for a fraction of the cost.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]

coldtea 3y ago

>No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice That was the case in 1999 too. The Linux on the Desktop dream wasn't about removing choice, but about MORE people making the choice to run Linux. Also, market share translates to support, resources available, people and companies working there, drivers, and so on. Personal choice to use X doesn't magically offer those.

azangru 3y ago

> No. I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. But I can't use the OS I like. I can't go in a store, pick a laptop I like, and get it with an OS I like. I can get it with an OS I don't like; and gamble that I can install on it an OS that I do like. It would have been very different if Linux market share on the desktop were in double digits.

everdrive 3y ago
This is a wholly valid point when it comes to Linux desktop penetration. However as an aside, it seems to me that the computers for sale in actual stores are usually of terrible quality. They’re the last the computers I would choose, and this isn’t really a Windows or ChromeOS thing. (I’d just wipe them and install Linux in any case) This doesn’t detract from your point at all, but it just seems like the most-available computers are the ones companies _want_ to sell rather than the computers that savvy consumers _want_ to buy.
- azangru 3y ago
  I agree, and am sad to observe that it is very different with Apple, where laptops available on display in a physical Apple store are often the ones a savvy customer would want to buy.
pokerface_86 3y ago
[dead]

zamalek 3y ago

> I will use the OS I like and others will use the OS they prefer. It’s called choice. That's a strange point to make. The whole point of this users changing their minds, and deciding that they prefer Linux. > I can’t justify allowing my team to run Linux So it's not about choice then?

peepee1982 3y ago

I'm sure as hell locked in. Linux Desktop doesn't even remotely come close to offer the things I ask out of a PC (high quality music production and image editing). On the other hand, both Windows and macOS do. And let's not even get started about work.

q87b 3y ago
Both these things are very well possible on Linux. Maybe you are more concerned about specific applications which have not been ported by their developers?
bannedbybros 3y ago
[dead]
Luctct 3y ago
I have run high quality music production software on Linux. It was Windows software, that runs thanks to Wine. It works and it's even better than native applications because native applications expire when a distro version is discontinued and the application is not packaged for the current version. Windows applications installed in Wine never expire. Wine is Linux, Linux does the job. And high quality image editing is possible, though it's probably done differently from whatever you're used to. There are plenty of graphic artists making their work on Linux and bragging about it. So "doesn't even remotely come close" is either a lie or a display of your ignorance.
- simooooo 3y ago
  Can you use iLok on Linux/wine?
JohnFen 3y ago
I know quite a few graphic artists and musical engineers who use Linux professionally. I think the difference, really, is which tools you're used to using. There aren't really any Linux tools for these sorts of things that work the same as the tools for Windows, so if you're expert with one, you still have a rather large learning curve if you want to use the other. That can be prohibitive.

Luctct 3y ago

What a joke. Web standards move under our feet -- and browsers break -- all the time. I personally work for a company that forces me to work online and only pretends to support Linux. They say I have to use the latest version of Chrome (so I can't choose a browser that won't spy on me), I use it and it still breaks occasionally. I know they count on everybody using Windows and don't want to bother with Linux. So much for cross-platform. That pipe dream was proven false years ago.