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> 3 years old I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. But this is not mentioned in the 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3 notes on pe

> 3 years old I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. But this is not mentioned in the 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3 notes on performance: http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.1.html#optimizations http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.2.html#optimizations http://docs.python.org/dev/whatsnew/3.3.html#optimizations > see the math That one is easy. The Python 3 conversion is a serious project for core devs at Django and Numpy. Check out their mailing lists about what this takes/took. http://blog.jarrodmillman.com/2009/01/when-will-numpy-and-scipy-migrate-to.html http://blog.jarrodmillman.com/2009/01/when-will-numpy-and-sc... While the above procedure of using the 2to3 tool works relatively for pure Python code, there is no automatic conversion tool for extension code. NumPy is mostly written in C and makes extensive use of the Python C-API. So converting NumPy will require much more than running the 2to3 tool. https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/faq/install/#can-i-use-django-with-python-3 https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/faq/install/#can-i-use... ... it will be a while before most Python software catches up and is able to run on Python 3.0. For larger Python- based software like Django, the transition is expected to take at least a year or two (since it involves dropping support for older Python releases and so must be done gradually). A "year or two" of the core Django team's time is easily several million bucks. Multiply by the Python codebases of every company on this list [1], and everyone on github, and every egg out there, and we are talking billions for the conversion. [1] http://wiki.python.org/moin/OrganizationsUsingPython http://wiki.python.org/moin/OrganizationsUsingPython

ldite 15y ago
> I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. According to this blog post, 3.2 performance now exceeds 2.6 and 2.7, using the same pystone benchmark that the 3.0 release notes refer to: http://www.levigross.com/post/2340736877/pystone-benchmark-on-2-6-2-7-3-2 http://www.levigross.com/post/2340736877/pystone-benchmark-o...
- sb 15y ago
  Supporting your statement: I am positive that Python 3 could be a lot faster than Python 2. If people are interested in what's possible, they should follow the corresponding mailing list (python-dev).
- temphn 15y ago
  From the full article, "Python 3.2 [beta] looks promising coming out just a little faster than Python 2.7.". This same article has PyPy coming in at 3 times as fast as Python 3.2 and Python 2.7 on the pystone benchmark, but if you have used PyPy it is not fast. Looks like we need another benchmark. Does anyone have the Python 2 code from the Shootout? It seems to have been removed so that you can no longer compare Python 3 to Python 2 directly. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python3&lang2=yarv http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=al...
jacobian 15y ago
> A "year or two" of the core Django team's time is easily several million bucks. Ahhhahaha, ahhhahahahahahahahahaha! Good lord I wish this was true!
- temphn 15y ago
  https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/committers/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/committers/ Jacob, there look like about 20 or more programmers on that page. At even $100k per programmer, isn't that about $2.4 million? And isn't the number much more than that given that you are among the most skilled engineers?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - kisielk 15y ago
    You seem to be making the assumption that many of those people are working on Django full time. It's pretty clear from their descriptions that most of them have other day jobs.
  - jacobian 15y ago
    * We have about 30 people with the commit bit; at any given time I'd guess about a dozen are active. * "Even 100k" implies that you think a six figure salary is reasonable for programmers. This is true in some rarefied echo chambers likethe Bay Area where programmer salaries are overinflated, but it's far from a universal The majority of our committers don't live near San Francisco. Actually, I think most live outside the US these days. I don't believe the median salary of a Django committers is 100k -- though for my fellow committers' sake I hope I'm wrong :) * I only wish "being a core Django committer" was some magic "Get a Great Job Paying Six Figures Card". No good hiring manager assumes that "has a Django commit bit" translates to "among the most skilled engineers"; I only wish I could pull down "much more than" 100k based solely on my Django status. It's certainly a good time to be a Django dev, but while being contributor might help you get your foot in the door, it won't land you a salary increase over your peers. * None of us get paid to work on Django anywhere close to full time. We get paid to do other things; we're lucky if we get a few hours a week to hack on Django as a side project. This again shows that our value in the salary marketplace isn't linked to our willingness to volunteer time to Django. * Finally, this whole silly exercise assumes it would take "a year or two" of ALL of our time to get Django onto Python 3. That's laughable: it's mostly done already with perhaps a couple of man-months of activity. There's nowhere near 20 programmer-years worth of work; suggesting such is simply insane. Toss me that 100k you're bandying about so easily and I'll have it done by May :)
briancurtin 15y ago
> I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. But this is not mentioned in the 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3 notes on performance: Do these documents really need to come out and spell it out for you? If you were to read what the document is telling you, you could probably figure it out. > That one is easy. Your original comment was about the print statement changes costing so much time and money, but now they are about the entirety of Django and NumPy. Yeah, it certainly costs money for a big project like Django to port (and people have completed it in their free-time), but print function/statement changes are trivial and do not cost on the order of billions of dollars.

ldite 15y ago

> I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. According to this blog post, 3.2 performance now exceeds 2.6 and 2.7, using the same pystone benchmark that the 3.0 release notes refer to: http://www.levigross.com/post/2340736877/pystone-benchmark-on-2-6-2-7-3-2 http://www.levigross.com/post/2340736877/pystone-benchmark-o...

sb 15y ago
Supporting your statement: I am positive that Python 3 could be a lot faster than Python 2. If people are interested in what's possible, they should follow the corresponding mailing list (python-dev).
temphn 15y ago
From the full article, "Python 3.2 [beta] looks promising coming out just a little faster than Python 2.7.". This same article has PyPy coming in at 3 times as fast as Python 3.2 and Python 2.7 on the pystone benchmark, but if you have used PyPy it is not fast. Looks like we need another benchmark. Does anyone have the Python 2 code from the Shootout? It seems to have been removed so that you can no longer compare Python 3 to Python 2 directly. http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=python3&lang2=yarv http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u64q/benchmark.php?test=al...

jacobian 15y ago

> A "year or two" of the core Django team's time is easily several million bucks. Ahhhahaha, ahhhahahahahahahahahaha! Good lord I wish this was true!

temphn 15y ago
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/committers/ https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/committers/ Jacob, there look like about 20 or more programmers on that page. At even $100k per programmer, isn't that about $2.4 million? And isn't the number much more than that given that you are among the most skilled engineers?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- kisielk 15y ago
  You seem to be making the assumption that many of those people are working on Django full time. It's pretty clear from their descriptions that most of them have other day jobs.
- jacobian 15y ago
  * We have about 30 people with the commit bit; at any given time I'd guess about a dozen are active. * "Even 100k" implies that you think a six figure salary is reasonable for programmers. This is true in some rarefied echo chambers likethe Bay Area where programmer salaries are overinflated, but it's far from a universal The majority of our committers don't live near San Francisco. Actually, I think most live outside the US these days. I don't believe the median salary of a Django committers is 100k -- though for my fellow committers' sake I hope I'm wrong :) * I only wish "being a core Django committer" was some magic "Get a Great Job Paying Six Figures Card". No good hiring manager assumes that "has a Django commit bit" translates to "among the most skilled engineers"; I only wish I could pull down "much more than" 100k based solely on my Django status. It's certainly a good time to be a Django dev, but while being contributor might help you get your foot in the door, it won't land you a salary increase over your peers. * None of us get paid to work on Django anywhere close to full time. We get paid to do other things; we're lucky if we get a few hours a week to hack on Django as a side project. This again shows that our value in the salary marketplace isn't linked to our willingness to volunteer time to Django. * Finally, this whole silly exercise assumes it would take "a year or two" of ALL of our time to get Django onto Python 3. That's laughable: it's mostly done already with perhaps a couple of man-months of activity. There's nowhere near 20 programmer-years worth of work; suggesting such is simply insane. Toss me that 100k you're bandying about so easily and I'll have it done by May :)

briancurtin 15y ago

> I'm pretty sure they'd have announced it if Python 3 ever got faster than Python 2. But this is not mentioned in the 3.1, 3.2, or 3.3 notes on performance: Do these documents really need to come out and spell it out for you? If you were to read what the document is telling you, you could probably figure it out. > That one is easy. Your original comment was about the print statement changes costing so much time and money, but now they are about the entirety of Django and NumPy. Yeah, it certainly costs money for a big project like Django to port (and people have completed it in their free-time), but print function/statement changes are trivial and do not cost on the order of billions of dollars.