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This is an interesting find, but it's not surprising to find a woman of prominence in that era. Before agriculture really took off, hunter gatherers were pretty

This is an interesting find, but it's not surprising to find a woman of prominence in that era. Before agriculture really took off, hunter gatherers were pretty egalitarian and a lot of kinship systems were matrilineal. Also, I think that it's more likely that this person was a shaman, than a chief, but that's just a speculation on my part.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago
This is the copper age and the late neolithic, so agricultural, not hunter-gatherer era.
midoridensha 3y ago
Humans were a lot better before they invented agriculture.
- DoreenMichele 3y ago
  They may well have been matrilineal because prior to IVF etc, you could be certain who the mother was but not the father. It has its good points but shouldn't be assumed to be an expression of high ideals. Most likely, quality of life went up for most people thanks to agriculture. Before that, war, abortion, exposing unwanted infants and insisting some people just leave the tribe and not come back were some of the means humans used to keep population levels sustainable and avert mass starvation in hunter-gatherer societies.
  - midoridensha 3y ago
    >They may well have been matrilineal because prior to IVF etc, you could be certain who the mother was but not the father. According to research I've read, pre-agricultural societies, and even more recent tribal hunter-gatherer societies, frequently had no concept of monogamy at all, and didn't worry about who people's fathers were, because children were raised by tribes/villages at large. Monogamy was an invention that came about with agriculture, because that's when the concepts of land ownership and inheritance came about. >Most likely, quality of life went up for most people thanks to agriculture. Actually, no: human height dropped about 30cm with the introduction of agriculture, because nutrition in an agriculture-based society is much worse than in a hunter-gatherer society. It took many millennia (as in, only very recently) for human height to get back to pre-agricultural levels.
    - DoreenMichele 3y ago
      I notice you didn't rebut my assertion that some portion of the population was murdered or banished (banishment being a thing that can also result in death). So perhaps most people were better off, except those that were murdered and perhaps except those who mourned those who were murdered and missed them. Also, I'm unaware of hunter-gatherer societies inventing much in the way of technology. Technological progress seems to require settled cultures. I happen to like modern tech and don't desperately wish I lived in a hunter-gatherer culture.
      - ETH_start 3y ago
        Yes, apparently one factor that prevented malnutrition from claiming more lives in the pre-agricultural era is that 30% of the population was culled through homicide, leading to the population remaining below the environment's carrying-capacity.
        midoridensha 3y ago
        >30% of the population was culled through homicide, leading to the population Is that from murder, or war (presumably inter-tribal), or both? We're not exactly doing much better in modern times. See Russia's war against Ukraine, or the 100M+ killed in WWII.
        ETH_start 3y ago
        The source I read said inter-tribal warfare was a major source of homicides, but I can't recall if intra-tribal murder was a major factor as well.
        defrost 3y ago
        It's certainly odd that such a seemingly important fact(?) doesn't appear at all in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer You should considering adding that factoid and your backing evidence.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Unfortunately the invention of agriculture had become a necessity after too successful hunting during hundreds of thousands of years had lead to the depletion of the hunted animals. Had not our ancestors invented agriculture, they would have eventually become extinct, together with their prey.
mjfl 3y ago
hunter gatherers make war with other tribes for the purposes of stealing women. The state of nature is a desperate, miserable circumstance where neither justice or morality can survive.
vlz 3y ago
It should be noted that the identification of inequality/equality with hunter-gatherer/agricultural lifestyles is under attack lately from at least some archaeologists https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/23/the-dawn-of-everything-by-david-graeber-and-david-wengrow-review-inequality-is-not-the-price-of-civilisation https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/23/the-dawn-of-ev...
jojobas 3y ago
That's a wild generalization. At least some extant hunter-gatherer societies (every Australian Aboriginal tribe) are as far from sex-egalitarian as it can possibly get.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

This is the copper age and the late neolithic, so agricultural, not hunter-gatherer era.

midoridensha 3y ago

Humans were a lot better before they invented agriculture.

DoreenMichele 3y ago
They may well have been matrilineal because prior to IVF etc, you could be certain who the mother was but not the father. It has its good points but shouldn't be assumed to be an expression of high ideals. Most likely, quality of life went up for most people thanks to agriculture. Before that, war, abortion, exposing unwanted infants and insisting some people just leave the tribe and not come back were some of the means humans used to keep population levels sustainable and avert mass starvation in hunter-gatherer societies.
- midoridensha 3y ago
  >They may well have been matrilineal because prior to IVF etc, you could be certain who the mother was but not the father. According to research I've read, pre-agricultural societies, and even more recent tribal hunter-gatherer societies, frequently had no concept of monogamy at all, and didn't worry about who people's fathers were, because children were raised by tribes/villages at large. Monogamy was an invention that came about with agriculture, because that's when the concepts of land ownership and inheritance came about. >Most likely, quality of life went up for most people thanks to agriculture. Actually, no: human height dropped about 30cm with the introduction of agriculture, because nutrition in an agriculture-based society is much worse than in a hunter-gatherer society. It took many millennia (as in, only very recently) for human height to get back to pre-agricultural levels.
  - DoreenMichele 3y ago
    I notice you didn't rebut my assertion that some portion of the population was murdered or banished (banishment being a thing that can also result in death). So perhaps most people were better off, except those that were murdered and perhaps except those who mourned those who were murdered and missed them. Also, I'm unaware of hunter-gatherer societies inventing much in the way of technology. Technological progress seems to require settled cultures. I happen to like modern tech and don't desperately wish I lived in a hunter-gatherer culture.
    - ETH_start 3y ago
      Yes, apparently one factor that prevented malnutrition from claiming more lives in the pre-agricultural era is that 30% of the population was culled through homicide, leading to the population remaining below the environment's carrying-capacity.
      - midoridensha 3y ago
        >30% of the population was culled through homicide, leading to the population Is that from murder, or war (presumably inter-tribal), or both? We're not exactly doing much better in modern times. See Russia's war against Ukraine, or the 100M+ killed in WWII.
        ETH_start 3y ago
        The source I read said inter-tribal warfare was a major source of homicides, but I can't recall if intra-tribal murder was a major factor as well.
      - defrost 3y ago
        It's certainly odd that such a seemingly important fact(?) doesn't appear at all in: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer You should considering adding that factoid and your backing evidence.
adrian_b 3y ago
Unfortunately the invention of agriculture had become a necessity after too successful hunting during hundreds of thousands of years had lead to the depletion of the hunted animals. Had not our ancestors invented agriculture, they would have eventually become extinct, together with their prey.

mjfl 3y ago

hunter gatherers make war with other tribes for the purposes of stealing women. The state of nature is a desperate, miserable circumstance where neither justice or morality can survive.

vlz 3y ago

It should be noted that the identification of inequality/equality with hunter-gatherer/agricultural lifestyles is under attack lately from at least some archaeologists https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/23/the-dawn-of-everything-by-david-graeber-and-david-wengrow-review-inequality-is-not-the-price-of-civilisation https://www.theguardian.com/books/2021/oct/23/the-dawn-of-ev...

jojobas 3y ago

That's a wild generalization. At least some extant hunter-gatherer societies (every Australian Aboriginal tribe) are as far from sex-egalitarian as it can possibly get.