4 ms·

I don't want to argue about this or fact check it but I still don't think that matters or changes my mind even if it's true. Turning Canada into a postnational

I don't want to argue about this or fact check it but I still don't think that matters or changes my mind even if it's true. Turning Canada into a postnational state would still be a terrible decision despite that fact. I still don't want my country to devolve into that.

jacquesm 3y ago
Like with most of these things 'fear' is a powerful button. But ask yourself this: from the position of a native Canadian you're the intruder (by proxy), and yet you are empowered to decide who should or should not be allowed to enter one of the largest countries in the world, with a population density approaching zero. I've lived in Canada for a relatively long time, the amount of overt racism and the amount of xenophobia are off the scale. I have a hard time reconciling that with the immigrant background of the average Canadian and think that if it was good enough for your (great) grandparents to displace the natives then it probably should be good enough for you to take a (minor) degree of mental discomfort if it helps refugees and others that have an actual need. And if you feel that that is too much of a step for your society to make then that's sad because it says that your ancestors did not manage to pass on their life's experience to a degree that you can benefit from it. Less than two generations ago my grandparents were refugees, driven - on foot - with their children from the home they lived in to walk across the frozen country side. They were taken in by farmers who definitely did not have food to spare. But they did it anyway, and at a considerable price to their own well-being and health they helped these complete strangers through the toughest part of World War II for that region (the area around Arnhem, well known for operation Market Garden and shown in some detail in the movie 'A bridge too far'. Refugees and other displaced people are welcome where I live, I'll be happy to pay more taxes if that's what it takes and I realize that with the housing shortage it means that my kids will likely not have a place to move to when they are of the age that they would normally do so. But my grandparents did manage to pass on the lessons learned from those times.
- evandale 3y ago
  I still don't see how any of this matters to me? Are you reading what I'm writing or more interested in lecturing somebody today? You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. I don't care that my ancestors were colonizers because it wasn't me. I don't care if you call me an invader because, again, it wasn't me. I'm not interested in giving any land back to anyone or allowing anyone into the country with no checks and balances because of something that happened 100s of years ago. And yes, I'm aware of the residential schools, but no, our government being shitty still doesn't make me desire turning Canada into a postnational state. Because it wasn't me! My ancestors are not me and I'm not interested in carrying weight on my shoulders for things other people have done.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    > You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. That's not a problem with the arguments, it's a problem with your worldview. If everything that happened that you directly benefit from 'wasn't you' and you therefore refuse to redress the wrongs done and on top of that refuse those same benefits to others that doesn't - in my opinion - make you a nice or reasonable person. Similar arguments have been put forth by the beneficiaries of crimes in the past and failed. You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. By helping to correct these wrong and by being open to others being helped you serve yourself because you keep the social pressures at a manageable level. Ignoring them for too long leads to them spilling over.
    - evandale 3y ago
      > You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. No, it wasn't me. For one, I was born in 1983 so it's literally impossible for it to have been me. I also don't have any wealth that I've benefited from. My family is broke as fuck and I'll inherit literally nothing of any value to anyone when my parents die. I have no living grandparents left. You're going to have to do better than "your worldview is different from mine therefore it sucks" to convince me that I've oppressed anyone anywhere. Your worldview sucks though and I suggest you get a better one. I can't help you with that because I'm not willing to patronize you so willingly, so good luck.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jacquesm 3y ago

Like with most of these things 'fear' is a powerful button. But ask yourself this: from the position of a native Canadian you're the intruder (by proxy), and yet you are empowered to decide who should or should not be allowed to enter one of the largest countries in the world, with a population density approaching zero. I've lived in Canada for a relatively long time, the amount of overt racism and the amount of xenophobia are off the scale. I have a hard time reconciling that with the immigrant background of the average Canadian and think that if it was good enough for your (great) grandparents to displace the natives then it probably should be good enough for you to take a (minor) degree of mental discomfort if it helps refugees and others that have an actual need. And if you feel that that is too much of a step for your society to make then that's sad because it says that your ancestors did not manage to pass on their life's experience to a degree that you can benefit from it. Less than two generations ago my grandparents were refugees, driven - on foot - with their children from the home they lived in to walk across the frozen country side. They were taken in by farmers who definitely did not have food to spare. But they did it anyway, and at a considerable price to their own well-being and health they helped these complete strangers through the toughest part of World War II for that region (the area around Arnhem, well known for operation Market Garden and shown in some detail in the movie 'A bridge too far'. Refugees and other displaced people are welcome where I live, I'll be happy to pay more taxes if that's what it takes and I realize that with the housing shortage it means that my kids will likely not have a place to move to when they are of the age that they would normally do so. But my grandparents did manage to pass on the lessons learned from those times.

evandale 3y ago
I still don't see how any of this matters to me? Are you reading what I'm writing or more interested in lecturing somebody today? You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. I don't care that my ancestors were colonizers because it wasn't me. I don't care if you call me an invader because, again, it wasn't me. I'm not interested in giving any land back to anyone or allowing anyone into the country with no checks and balances because of something that happened 100s of years ago. And yes, I'm aware of the residential schools, but no, our government being shitty still doesn't make me desire turning Canada into a postnational state. Because it wasn't me! My ancestors are not me and I'm not interested in carrying weight on my shoulders for things other people have done.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  > You keep bringing up arguments I've already said will not sway me. That's not a problem with the arguments, it's a problem with your worldview. If everything that happened that you directly benefit from 'wasn't you' and you therefore refuse to redress the wrongs done and on top of that refuse those same benefits to others that doesn't - in my opinion - make you a nice or reasonable person. Similar arguments have been put forth by the beneficiaries of crimes in the past and failed. You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. By helping to correct these wrong and by being open to others being helped you serve yourself because you keep the social pressures at a manageable level. Ignoring them for too long leads to them spilling over.
  - evandale 3y ago
    > You're obviously entirely welcome to your worldview and your feeling that if it wasn't you that did it that you can ignore the source of your wealth but such individual selfishness can add up to collective selfishness and that's the sort of thing that will sooner or later garner a collective response. And by then no amount of 'it wasn't me' will be of help because it was you, all along. No, it wasn't me. For one, I was born in 1983 so it's literally impossible for it to have been me. I also don't have any wealth that I've benefited from. My family is broke as fuck and I'll inherit literally nothing of any value to anyone when my parents die. I have no living grandparents left. You're going to have to do better than "your worldview is different from mine therefore it sucks" to convince me that I've oppressed anyone anywhere. Your worldview sucks though and I suggest you get a better one. I can't help you with that because I'm not willing to patronize you so willingly, so good luck.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]