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Let me explain then. Automation, increased productivity continue to rise at least as fast. Not clear we won't be fine simply because of that. And No we do not

Let me explain then. Automation, increased productivity continue to rise at least as fast. Not clear we won't be fine simply because of that. And No we do not have to chase the Malthusian Catastrophe to 'win'. We can do it other ways. Quelling consumerism. Reigning in capitalism. Sensibly designing cities. The Japanese talk only of extinction of the pure Japan, which is on the face of it a racist policy. Not a real strong point in the argument. Japan will persist, with a normal mix of people from around the world creating a new culture that they want. Not something frozen in time that the octogenarians of Japan worship and cling onto.

matheusmoreira 3y ago
> The Japanese talk only of extinction of the pure Japan > Japan will persist > with a normal mix of people from around the world > creating a new culture So what you're saying is the actual japanese people will go extinct and all the immigrants who actually have children will replace them and create a new japanese culture. And you see nothing wrong with that at all.
- Veraticus 3y ago
  Why would there be anything wrong with it? This is the way cultures and people have changed since time immemorial.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    > This is the way cultures and people have changed since time immemorial. Yeah, because some empire came and killed your people off and conquered your lands and enslaved your survivors and erased your culture so they could replace it their own. Not because people wiped themselves off the map because they wouldn't have children.
    - Veraticus 3y ago
      Cultures are and always have been constantly shifting and changing; conquest is one method of that happening, as you point out, but is far from the only one. Immigration, emigration, catastrophe, technological progress, climate change... all result in the movement of people and the shifting of national and cultural boundaries. No culture is "erased" as a result of this. Even if Japan fails to have children, Japanese culture and the Japanese nation will continue. It will look different, certainly. But there's nothing magical or better about the way things used to be simply because they used to be that way. Change is inevitable, and more than that, it is good.
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        > Even if Japan fails to have children, Japanese culture and the Japanese nation will continue. No. Nations are a collection of people with shared ethnicity, land, culture, language, history. If the japanese people disappear, the nation will also disappear. It's not going to magically continue just because the country of Japan is still there. Can't have a nation without its people.
        Veraticus 3y ago
        No. Nations are lines drawn on a map. The people inside need have nothing in common other than geographic proximity. Japan will exist as long as people live there and call it Japan. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, land, culture, or history.
        matheusmoreira 3y ago
        Nonsense. > nation > A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language There are nations without states. There are also nation states. The latter is more precise than country which does not imply any dominant ethnic group.
        Veraticus 3y ago
        If you don’t have the intellectual capacity to continue that’s okay. I understand ethnostatists get easily confused by ambiguity and historical fact.
    - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
      More alarmist hyperbole. I know of several Japanese families in my hometown, come here to study, and they are doing fine.
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        So what? My hometown was literally built by the japanese. My parents worked with japanese their entire lives. Sometimes I go to a restaurant and I hear people speaking japanese nearby. They're all doing fine too. Doesn't change the fact birth rates in Japan are below replacement. Am I missing something here?
        JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        Extinction means more than 'below replacement'. Things change; culture changes. It's the lowering population figures that will require change that the octogenarians fear, not actual non-existence of a Japanese people. All the rest of this thread has been disingenuous hyperbole based on that.
      - tarboreus 3y ago
        I saw a Javan Rhinos the other day. He seemed to be doing pretty good.
- judge2020 3y ago
  > > The Japanese talk only of extinction of the pure Japan > > Japan will persist The point is that they aren't doing well on the "persist" front. https://apnews.com/article/japan-birth-rate-record-low-population-aging-ade0c8a5bb52442f4365db1597530ee4 https://apnews.com/article/japan-birth-rate-record-low-popul...
- JoeAltmaier 3y ago
  That's typical hyperbole, and not moving the discussion forward. Nobody, not even the Japanese government expects that. They are anticipating a difficulty maintaining their culture against mixing with the world. Which has actually been going on for 70 years now, and continues at a breakneck pace. Japanese people will come to include all sorts of people, who will happily live together and move forward. Without our permission or control, as folks all over the world do.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    > Nobody, not even the Japanese government expects that. Are you sure? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64373950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64373950 > They are anticipating a difficulty maintaining their culture against mixing with the world. Of course. If you don't have children, then you need immigration from countries that do. That will obviously change your culture. A nation is made up of people of a shared origin, history, culture, ethnicity, language. If you replace the people with immigrants and they create a new culture, the nation is no more. > Japanese people will come to include all sorts of people, who will happily live together and move forward. That's like saying white people will come to include all sorts of people.
    - Veraticus 3y ago
      Culture is changing constantly; the idea that there's a fixed point there is absurd, because again, there is nothing inherent to a nation other than lines drawn on an arbitrary map. White people already do include all sorts of people -- whiteness is, obviously, not a single unified ethnicity, national, cultural, linguistic, or historical background but an aesthetic conception of someone's skin color. Because ethnostatism is stupid and intellectually inconsistent.

matheusmoreira 3y ago

> The Japanese talk only of extinction of the pure Japan > Japan will persist > with a normal mix of people from around the world > creating a new culture So what you're saying is the actual japanese people will go extinct and all the immigrants who actually have children will replace them and create a new japanese culture. And you see nothing wrong with that at all.

Veraticus 3y ago
Why would there be anything wrong with it? This is the way cultures and people have changed since time immemorial.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > This is the way cultures and people have changed since time immemorial. Yeah, because some empire came and killed your people off and conquered your lands and enslaved your survivors and erased your culture so they could replace it their own. Not because people wiped themselves off the map because they wouldn't have children.
  - Veraticus 3y ago
    Cultures are and always have been constantly shifting and changing; conquest is one method of that happening, as you point out, but is far from the only one. Immigration, emigration, catastrophe, technological progress, climate change... all result in the movement of people and the shifting of national and cultural boundaries. No culture is "erased" as a result of this. Even if Japan fails to have children, Japanese culture and the Japanese nation will continue. It will look different, certainly. But there's nothing magical or better about the way things used to be simply because they used to be that way. Change is inevitable, and more than that, it is good.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      > Even if Japan fails to have children, Japanese culture and the Japanese nation will continue. No. Nations are a collection of people with shared ethnicity, land, culture, language, history. If the japanese people disappear, the nation will also disappear. It's not going to magically continue just because the country of Japan is still there. Can't have a nation without its people.
      - Veraticus 3y ago
        No. Nations are lines drawn on a map. The people inside need have nothing in common other than geographic proximity. Japan will exist as long as people live there and call it Japan. It has nothing to do with ethnicity, land, culture, or history.
        matheusmoreira 3y ago
        Nonsense. > nation > A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language There are nations without states. There are also nation states. The latter is more precise than country which does not imply any dominant ethnic group.
        Veraticus 3y ago
        If you don’t have the intellectual capacity to continue that’s okay. I understand ethnostatists get easily confused by ambiguity and historical fact.
  - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
    More alarmist hyperbole. I know of several Japanese families in my hometown, come here to study, and they are doing fine.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      So what? My hometown was literally built by the japanese. My parents worked with japanese their entire lives. Sometimes I go to a restaurant and I hear people speaking japanese nearby. They're all doing fine too. Doesn't change the fact birth rates in Japan are below replacement. Am I missing something here?
      - JoeAltmaier 3y ago
        Extinction means more than 'below replacement'. Things change; culture changes. It's the lowering population figures that will require change that the octogenarians fear, not actual non-existence of a Japanese people. All the rest of this thread has been disingenuous hyperbole based on that.
    - tarboreus 3y ago
      I saw a Javan Rhinos the other day. He seemed to be doing pretty good.
judge2020 3y ago
> > The Japanese talk only of extinction of the pure Japan > > Japan will persist The point is that they aren't doing well on the "persist" front. https://apnews.com/article/japan-birth-rate-record-low-population-aging-ade0c8a5bb52442f4365db1597530ee4 https://apnews.com/article/japan-birth-rate-record-low-popul...
JoeAltmaier 3y ago
That's typical hyperbole, and not moving the discussion forward. Nobody, not even the Japanese government expects that. They are anticipating a difficulty maintaining their culture against mixing with the world. Which has actually been going on for 70 years now, and continues at a breakneck pace. Japanese people will come to include all sorts of people, who will happily live together and move forward. Without our permission or control, as folks all over the world do.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  > Nobody, not even the Japanese government expects that. Are you sure? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64373950 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-64373950 > They are anticipating a difficulty maintaining their culture against mixing with the world. Of course. If you don't have children, then you need immigration from countries that do. That will obviously change your culture. A nation is made up of people of a shared origin, history, culture, ethnicity, language. If you replace the people with immigrants and they create a new culture, the nation is no more. > Japanese people will come to include all sorts of people, who will happily live together and move forward. That's like saying white people will come to include all sorts of people.
  - Veraticus 3y ago
    Culture is changing constantly; the idea that there's a fixed point there is absurd, because again, there is nothing inherent to a nation other than lines drawn on an arbitrary map. White people already do include all sorts of people -- whiteness is, obviously, not a single unified ethnicity, national, cultural, linguistic, or historical background but an aesthetic conception of someone's skin color. Because ethnostatism is stupid and intellectually inconsistent.