5 ms·

noyb is ready to challenge this https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-eu-us-data-transfers-third-round-cjeu https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-

noyb is ready to challenge this https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-eu-us-data-transfers-third-round-cjeu https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-eu-us-data-tran...

granzymes 3y ago
Eventually one of these agreements will stick, and the US and EU will keep pumping them out until that happens. There is too much trade at risk otherwise. There are enough macro headwinds for the global economy without adding self-inflicted injuries.
- xethos 3y ago
  > self-inflicted injuries. > the EU's top court struck down two previous agreements over fears of U.S. intelligence agencies' snooping. Yeah, if only America's government agencies could keep within the confines of the law.
  - tristor 3y ago
    American government agencies are acting within US law when they spy on Europeans. They have legal remit, explicitly, to perform signals intelligence on foreign entities/persons. This is clearly abused in various ways (5EYES), but is also not illegal. It's only illegal for these American agencies to spy on Americans and within the boundaries of the US.
    - gpm 3y ago
      It's legal (under US law), but it's still a hostile act. It shouldn't be a surprise that it harms trade and international relations. To use an extreme example to drive the point home, going to war with someone is (or can be made) legal too...
      - tristor 3y ago
        I'm not agreeing with it. I vehemently disagree with current US intelligence policy, and I think 5EYES is a travesty and clearly intended to do an end-run around legal protections for citizens of each of the signatories from their own government. It's clear the US government is acting unethically, but that does not mean their behavior is illegal, and I'm trying to clearly point out the distinction. There's a lot of Europeans in the comments who mistakenly believe that GDPR applies outside of the EU. It does not. The US is a sovereign nation with its own laws, and it does not have any analogous legal restrictions like GDPR, nor does it have any legal restrictions against the government using it's intelligence apparatus against non-Americans.
        gpm 3y ago
        The GDPR does apply outside the EU, it, like many laws, is extra-territorial. That doesn't mean the non-EU countries will enforce it, it means that EU countries will enforce it even if the violation of the law happened outside of the EU.
        tristor 3y ago
        > The GDPR does apply outside the EU, it, like many laws, is extra-territorial. Extra-territoriality of law is a fantasy, not a reality, unless it's backed by significant soft and hard power. Any country can say their law is extra-territorial all they want, but they have no jurisdictional authority to the enforce the law in an extra-territorial way. The extra-territoriality of GDPR has never been tested, but it's pretty clear to me that the EU cannot successfully enforce GDPR against a non-EU entity in the US. It may be able to use soft-power against smaller nations, but not against the US. If the GDPR needs to extend into the US, it has to be via treaty, which has the same force as federal law, or via analogous federal law in the US. Neither of which exist right now. In fact, the exact opposite exists. The US government has made it pretty clear with the Cloud Act and other laws that the GDPR does not and will not apply to US-based companies operating on the Internet. The EU is welcome to try to enforce it. In some ways, I would hope it would succeed (I support GDPR privacy rights/goals), however the precedent of extra-territoriality and sovereignty is not small.
- Dah00n 3y ago
  Sounds about right, but the self-inflicted injuries seem to be US, not EU, made. The fix is straightforward: Stop the US snooping, don't disassemble EU civil rights.

noyb is ready to challenge this https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-eu-us-data-transfers-third-round-cjeu https://noyb.eu/en/european-commission-gives-eu-us-data-tran...

granzymes 3y ago

Eventually one of these agreements will stick, and the US and EU will keep pumping them out until that happens. There is too much trade at risk otherwise. There are enough macro headwinds for the global economy without adding self-inflicted injuries.

xethos 3y ago
> self-inflicted injuries. > the EU's top court struck down two previous agreements over fears of U.S. intelligence agencies' snooping. Yeah, if only America's government agencies could keep within the confines of the law.
- tristor 3y ago
  American government agencies are acting within US law when they spy on Europeans. They have legal remit, explicitly, to perform signals intelligence on foreign entities/persons. This is clearly abused in various ways (5EYES), but is also not illegal. It's only illegal for these American agencies to spy on Americans and within the boundaries of the US.
  - gpm 3y ago
    It's legal (under US law), but it's still a hostile act. It shouldn't be a surprise that it harms trade and international relations. To use an extreme example to drive the point home, going to war with someone is (or can be made) legal too...
    - tristor 3y ago
      I'm not agreeing with it. I vehemently disagree with current US intelligence policy, and I think 5EYES is a travesty and clearly intended to do an end-run around legal protections for citizens of each of the signatories from their own government. It's clear the US government is acting unethically, but that does not mean their behavior is illegal, and I'm trying to clearly point out the distinction. There's a lot of Europeans in the comments who mistakenly believe that GDPR applies outside of the EU. It does not. The US is a sovereign nation with its own laws, and it does not have any analogous legal restrictions like GDPR, nor does it have any legal restrictions against the government using it's intelligence apparatus against non-Americans.
      - gpm 3y ago
        The GDPR does apply outside the EU, it, like many laws, is extra-territorial. That doesn't mean the non-EU countries will enforce it, it means that EU countries will enforce it even if the violation of the law happened outside of the EU.
        tristor 3y ago
        > The GDPR does apply outside the EU, it, like many laws, is extra-territorial. Extra-territoriality of law is a fantasy, not a reality, unless it's backed by significant soft and hard power. Any country can say their law is extra-territorial all they want, but they have no jurisdictional authority to the enforce the law in an extra-territorial way. The extra-territoriality of GDPR has never been tested, but it's pretty clear to me that the EU cannot successfully enforce GDPR against a non-EU entity in the US. It may be able to use soft-power against smaller nations, but not against the US. If the GDPR needs to extend into the US, it has to be via treaty, which has the same force as federal law, or via analogous federal law in the US. Neither of which exist right now. In fact, the exact opposite exists. The US government has made it pretty clear with the Cloud Act and other laws that the GDPR does not and will not apply to US-based companies operating on the Internet. The EU is welcome to try to enforce it. In some ways, I would hope it would succeed (I support GDPR privacy rights/goals), however the precedent of extra-territoriality and sovereignty is not small.
Dah00n 3y ago
Sounds about right, but the self-inflicted injuries seem to be US, not EU, made. The fix is straightforward: Stop the US snooping, don't disassemble EU civil rights.