5 ms·

The older I get the more appalled I am at what managers are bringing to the table versus senior engineers.

galleywest200 3y ago
I appreciate a good manager, but not really middle managers. I moved to DevOps and I report directly to a VP and it is a game-changer compared to when I reported to a middle-manager in Support. However, the Principal (senior) Engineer I work with can be a bit of an angry ass sometimes and I am unsure he would make a good manager.
- lupire 3y ago
  A good middle manager is a good manager of your managers. Unblocking them and coordinating with other teams. You wouldn't even know them, unless your manager was a bad apple and you needed middle manager's help. A bad middle manager is out there thought leading and babbling distracting garbage to everyone.
rs999gti 3y ago
> what managers are bringing to the table What I noticed in my org, are the senior managers are the ones who get to talk to the business people and get to muddle the waters and do a lot of repetitive work. Sometimes things do not get done until a project manager or senior dev actually talks to the business person and gets the correct requirements out. I don't know why it is this way at my org, but the IT director does not want to talk to PMs, Devs, or Analysts. He would rather have a top level circle of senior managers who insulate him from the actual work.
- juve1996 3y ago
  > I don't know why it is this way at my org, but the IT director does not want to talk to PMs, Devs, or Analysts. He would rather have a top level circle of senior managers who insulate him from the actual work. To me this makes...sense. A general doesn't meet each individual field soldier, it's not feasible and doesn't scale. Not sure what kind of firms people on here work for, but most of my managers all the way up have 0 life at all. They're constantly working dealing with millions of little details where they have to make an instant decision. It honestly looks like hell.
  - rs999gti 3y ago
    It makes sense to me with 3/5 senior managers. They came from working IT backgrounds as developers, network admins, or SAP developers/senior admins. 2/5 of these senior managers have zero IT experience either in role or outside of this company. Yet they make very technical decisions, which either need to be corrected or clarified. Complaints to the director about this have fallen on deaf ears.
    - juve1996 3y ago
      Seems to be accurate. The fact is there is a need for 5/5 competent managers but it's unlikely to find 5/5 competent managers. Just as there are 10x devs and 1x devs.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
As a senior engineer I don't really agree. I've had good and bad managers over time, and the presence of good managers has been key when I've had more success and satisfaction. For me, the good ones help me do the work that I am usually bad at or don't want to do: the nitty gritty of task prioritization, keeping track of the a bunch of the higher level details, parsing leadership's emanation for product direction, etc. That, and acting like a shield to deflect any badness that might come down from above. I like contributing opinions and so on to all that, but I don't want to be the person attending all those meetings and being the final arbiter -- at least not right now. So I'm very happy to have someone there doing that, so I can operate more at the technical level. I guess I'm a bit ADHD, but a lot of what managers do doesn't motivate me, sorry. So, yes, please to having someone fill those shoes. If they're good. But a bad manager, yes... a problem. Luckily it's a competitive job market, and my skills such as they are can be used elsewhere, with better management.
wnolens 3y ago
Same. In my experience about 1 in 5 has been some help to the team (the rest hinder or contribute neutrally), but even they have an easier/less stressful job and work far less hours and apply far less mental bandwidth to each task. I'm convinced becoming a manager should mean a pay cut.
- shitpostbot 3y ago
  [dead]
globalreset 3y ago
Manager are for managing low skilled workers that need supervision and help. The idea that you hire "the best SWEs" and then you have to slap a manager to oversee them like they are burger flippers is ridiculous on its face. SWEs might benefit from some help from experienced technical leadership - someone to consult, get feedback from etc. and from bureaucratic assistance (help get paperwork out of the way), but typically "SWE manager" position is akin to fast-food chain manager in a SWE shop.
- lupire 3y ago
  Managers manage the team direction and prioritization and alignment with other teams, not supervise the people working. 10 people working individually well but at cross purposes or unimportant but technically challenging work are a bad team. Even the best elite burger flipper needs to switch to making fries if that's what the customer needs.

I appreciate a good manager, but not really middle managers. I moved to DevOps and I report directly to a VP and it is a game-changer compared to when I reported to a middle-manager in Support. However, the Principal (senior) Engineer I work with can be a bit of an angry ass sometimes and I am unsure he would make a good manager.

lupire 3y ago
A good middle manager is a good manager of your managers. Unblocking them and coordinating with other teams. You wouldn't even know them, unless your manager was a bad apple and you needed middle manager's help. A bad middle manager is out there thought leading and babbling distracting garbage to everyone.

rs999gti 3y ago

> what managers are bringing to the table What I noticed in my org, are the senior managers are the ones who get to talk to the business people and get to muddle the waters and do a lot of repetitive work. Sometimes things do not get done until a project manager or senior dev actually talks to the business person and gets the correct requirements out. I don't know why it is this way at my org, but the IT director does not want to talk to PMs, Devs, or Analysts. He would rather have a top level circle of senior managers who insulate him from the actual work.

juve1996 3y ago
> I don't know why it is this way at my org, but the IT director does not want to talk to PMs, Devs, or Analysts. He would rather have a top level circle of senior managers who insulate him from the actual work. To me this makes...sense. A general doesn't meet each individual field soldier, it's not feasible and doesn't scale. Not sure what kind of firms people on here work for, but most of my managers all the way up have 0 life at all. They're constantly working dealing with millions of little details where they have to make an instant decision. It honestly looks like hell.
- rs999gti 3y ago
  It makes sense to me with 3/5 senior managers. They came from working IT backgrounds as developers, network admins, or SAP developers/senior admins. 2/5 of these senior managers have zero IT experience either in role or outside of this company. Yet they make very technical decisions, which either need to be corrected or clarified. Complaints to the director about this have fallen on deaf ears.
  - juve1996 3y ago
    Seems to be accurate. The fact is there is a need for 5/5 competent managers but it's unlikely to find 5/5 competent managers. Just as there are 10x devs and 1x devs.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

As a senior engineer I don't really agree. I've had good and bad managers over time, and the presence of good managers has been key when I've had more success and satisfaction. For me, the good ones help me do the work that I am usually bad at or don't want to do: the nitty gritty of task prioritization, keeping track of the a bunch of the higher level details, parsing leadership's emanation for product direction, etc. That, and acting like a shield to deflect any badness that might come down from above. I like contributing opinions and so on to all that, but I don't want to be the person attending all those meetings and being the final arbiter -- at least not right now. So I'm very happy to have someone there doing that, so I can operate more at the technical level. I guess I'm a bit ADHD, but a lot of what managers do doesn't motivate me, sorry. So, yes, please to having someone fill those shoes. If they're good. But a bad manager, yes... a problem. Luckily it's a competitive job market, and my skills such as they are can be used elsewhere, with better management.

wnolens 3y ago

Same. In my experience about 1 in 5 has been some help to the team (the rest hinder or contribute neutrally), but even they have an easier/less stressful job and work far less hours and apply far less mental bandwidth to each task. I'm convinced becoming a manager should mean a pay cut.

shitpostbot 3y ago
[dead]

globalreset 3y ago

Manager are for managing low skilled workers that need supervision and help. The idea that you hire "the best SWEs" and then you have to slap a manager to oversee them like they are burger flippers is ridiculous on its face. SWEs might benefit from some help from experienced technical leadership - someone to consult, get feedback from etc. and from bureaucratic assistance (help get paperwork out of the way), but typically "SWE manager" position is akin to fast-food chain manager in a SWE shop.

lupire 3y ago
Managers manage the team direction and prioritization and alignment with other teams, not supervise the people working. 10 people working individually well but at cross purposes or unimportant but technically challenging work are a bad team. Even the best elite burger flipper needs to switch to making fries if that's what the customer needs.