6 ms·

How absolutely horrifying. Is this the future we can expect from climate change? Murdering the people who try to escape the suffering we have inflicted upon the

How absolutely horrifying. Is this the future we can expect from climate change? Murdering the people who try to escape the suffering we have inflicted upon them?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
init 3y ago
Unfortunately this has already been happening for a decade or more since the NATO "intervention" in Libya and it has little to do with climate change.
- csomar 3y ago
  The NATO intervention has nothing to do with this. The previous dictator created the threat to dissuade the EU from removing him. Now that he's out of the picture, the inevitable happened. A good lesson is to stop propping dictators in exchange for short-term stability. Based on the current events, the EU did not learn that lesson.
  - atlantic 3y ago
    No, the lesson is to stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs. The so-called refugees all originate from countries that suffered western military operations. "Humanitarian" intervention is the new colonialism.
    - sharikous 3y ago
      Pakistan did not suffer "Western military operations", at least not recently and at a big scale, and half of the refugees in the ship were probably Pakistani. "Humanitarian" intervention has always been an excuse to conquer, at least from the times of the Persian Empire or so. And there have been refugee waves wherever there had been war and famine - that is all over the globe, with nothing explicitly indicating the "western interventions" are outsiders
      - atlantic 3y ago
        The vast majority of refugees crossing the Mediterranean are from countries torn apart by western-instigated civil unrest or war: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, and various north African countries subject to "color revolutions". This isn't even remotely controversial. Pakistanis, Indians, Nepalese, generally fly in with tourist or student visas, and then try to find work.
        sharikous 3y ago
        Read the article, in that specific ship it is believed that half were from Pakistan
        atlantic 3y ago
        Even if this particular ship is an outlier, the broader point stands regarding the make-up of refugee populations. And concerning Pakistan, former PM Imran Khan stated his fall from power was caused by US interference. That counts as major.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
It's already been happening. It will just keep growing.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
j-a-a-p 3y ago
> Two of the coastguard sources told the Guardian they believed towing was a likely reason for the boat capsizing. This would not be without precedent. In 2014, an attempt to tow a refugee boat off the coast of Farmakonisi cost 11 lives. Greek courts cleared the coastguard, but the European court of human rights passed a damning judgment in 2022. One case in court - it happened before.
bluescrn 3y ago
On the other hand, 'climate change' is the excuse used by rich countries for not building the infrastructure required to support increased migration. And there's probably a significant overlap between the people calling for wide open borders and those who'd protest to block large infrastructure construction projects for environmental reasons.
- HappySweeney 3y ago
  Who is calling for wide open borders?
  - mastax 3y ago
    I am!
    - leaveyou 3y ago
      Why ? You feel alone ?
      - mcv 3y ago
        I'm not mastax, but I personally think borders are stupid and we shouldn't be locking people into the place they were born. I want us to move beyond such feudal ideas. Of course I also understand that unrestrained migration right now would cause massive problems. The real problem here is not the migration itself, but what's causing it. Most people (apart from some adventurous souls) don't normally want to leave the place they were born and where their family lives, except when driven to leave by circumstances, whether those circumstances are poverty, civil war or climate change. If we have a problem with migration, we should do more to address the causes of migration. And not create more causes for migration.
        leaveyou 3y ago
        >>we should do more to address the causes of migration In my opinion not even God himself (if he exists) can address the causes of migration unless He changes the natural rules overnight. The idea that you and me or even Elon Musk + Bill Gates can actually do something to address the actual causes of migration sounds very naive, horribly naive, and please don't take it as an offense. Lets say for a moment that there is a miracle and "we" fix the poverty and the climate in the world tomorrow. How long do you think will that last ? 20-30 years until the world population doubles again ? What do you do then when this overpopulation combined with the corresponding consumption and pollution brings us back to the current situation ? Will you invite "us" all again to fix everything back ? How are "we" going to fix this situation ? By working each of us overtime or what ?
giraffe_lady 3y ago
Exactly this outcome was predicted decades ago and has been happening for at least ten years now.
droopyEyelids 3y ago
Absolutely yes. If you do some envelope math about the scale of the problem, you realize it'll be a crisis like nothing we've ever faced before. For example, in Bangladesh, 45% of the population (74m people) live within a meter of sea level. Bangladesh is in some ways like a huge Mississippi River delta. Imagine what would happen if 74m people had to flee their homes... It's tough because humanity has never dealt with a migration on that scale. But the outcome will certainly be chaotic, there won't be supply chains to feed that many people let alone house them and provide sanitation. And in that level of chaos there will be military response and violence.
slibhb 3y ago
Blaming immigration into Europe on climate change seems like a stretch. It's about political and economic instability.
- klysm 3y ago
  I think they’re saying that the future migrations caused by climate change will have similar outcomes
- oulipo 3y ago
  Well, ask yourself what are the causes of the political and economic instabilities, and whether they are largely (and increasingly) due to climate change...
  - rudasn 3y ago
    .. Or European countries and their policies dating hundreds of years back.
    - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
      Oh yes, Eastern and Central Europe had famous colonies....
  - 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
    Ask yourself the causes of climate change and you will be right back to political economy. Parent has a point.
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  Americans aren't capable of discussing political economy outright.
leaveyou 3y ago
[flagged]
jacquesm 3y ago
Unfortunately, probably 'yes'. And the degree to which we have so far proven to be unable to solve problems at that scale doesn't give me high hopes that we'll deal with this gracefully. Adapt, move or die seem to be the options on the table and 'die' is the default option if you fail at the other two.

How absolutely horrifying. Is this the future we can expect from climate change? Murdering the people who try to escape the suffering we have inflicted upon them?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

init 3y ago

Unfortunately this has already been happening for a decade or more since the NATO "intervention" in Libya and it has little to do with climate change.

csomar 3y ago
The NATO intervention has nothing to do with this. The previous dictator created the threat to dissuade the EU from removing him. Now that he's out of the picture, the inevitable happened. A good lesson is to stop propping dictators in exchange for short-term stability. Based on the current events, the EU did not learn that lesson.
- atlantic 3y ago
  No, the lesson is to stop interfering in other countries' internal affairs. The so-called refugees all originate from countries that suffered western military operations. "Humanitarian" intervention is the new colonialism.
  - sharikous 3y ago
    Pakistan did not suffer "Western military operations", at least not recently and at a big scale, and half of the refugees in the ship were probably Pakistani. "Humanitarian" intervention has always been an excuse to conquer, at least from the times of the Persian Empire or so. And there have been refugee waves wherever there had been war and famine - that is all over the globe, with nothing explicitly indicating the "western interventions" are outsiders
    - atlantic 3y ago
      The vast majority of refugees crossing the Mediterranean are from countries torn apart by western-instigated civil unrest or war: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Lybia, and various north African countries subject to "color revolutions". This isn't even remotely controversial. Pakistanis, Indians, Nepalese, generally fly in with tourist or student visas, and then try to find work.
      - sharikous 3y ago
        Read the article, in that specific ship it is believed that half were from Pakistan
        atlantic 3y ago
        Even if this particular ship is an outlier, the broader point stands regarding the make-up of refugee populations. And concerning Pakistan, former PM Imran Khan stated his fall from power was caused by US interference. That counts as major.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

It's already been happening. It will just keep growing.

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

j-a-a-p 3y ago

> Two of the coastguard sources told the Guardian they believed towing was a likely reason for the boat capsizing. This would not be without precedent. In 2014, an attempt to tow a refugee boat off the coast of Farmakonisi cost 11 lives. Greek courts cleared the coastguard, but the European court of human rights passed a damning judgment in 2022. One case in court - it happened before.

bluescrn 3y ago

On the other hand, 'climate change' is the excuse used by rich countries for not building the infrastructure required to support increased migration. And there's probably a significant overlap between the people calling for wide open borders and those who'd protest to block large infrastructure construction projects for environmental reasons.

HappySweeney 3y ago
Who is calling for wide open borders?
- mastax 3y ago
  I am!
  - leaveyou 3y ago
    Why ? You feel alone ?
    - mcv 3y ago
      I'm not mastax, but I personally think borders are stupid and we shouldn't be locking people into the place they were born. I want us to move beyond such feudal ideas. Of course I also understand that unrestrained migration right now would cause massive problems. The real problem here is not the migration itself, but what's causing it. Most people (apart from some adventurous souls) don't normally want to leave the place they were born and where their family lives, except when driven to leave by circumstances, whether those circumstances are poverty, civil war or climate change. If we have a problem with migration, we should do more to address the causes of migration. And not create more causes for migration.
      - leaveyou 3y ago
        >>we should do more to address the causes of migration In my opinion not even God himself (if he exists) can address the causes of migration unless He changes the natural rules overnight. The idea that you and me or even Elon Musk + Bill Gates can actually do something to address the actual causes of migration sounds very naive, horribly naive, and please don't take it as an offense. Lets say for a moment that there is a miracle and "we" fix the poverty and the climate in the world tomorrow. How long do you think will that last ? 20-30 years until the world population doubles again ? What do you do then when this overpopulation combined with the corresponding consumption and pollution brings us back to the current situation ? Will you invite "us" all again to fix everything back ? How are "we" going to fix this situation ? By working each of us overtime or what ?

giraffe_lady 3y ago

Exactly this outcome was predicted decades ago and has been happening for at least ten years now.

droopyEyelids 3y ago

Absolutely yes. If you do some envelope math about the scale of the problem, you realize it'll be a crisis like nothing we've ever faced before. For example, in Bangladesh, 45% of the population (74m people) live within a meter of sea level. Bangladesh is in some ways like a huge Mississippi River delta. Imagine what would happen if 74m people had to flee their homes... It's tough because humanity has never dealt with a migration on that scale. But the outcome will certainly be chaotic, there won't be supply chains to feed that many people let alone house them and provide sanitation. And in that level of chaos there will be military response and violence.

slibhb 3y ago

Blaming immigration into Europe on climate change seems like a stretch. It's about political and economic instability.

klysm 3y ago
I think they’re saying that the future migrations caused by climate change will have similar outcomes
oulipo 3y ago
Well, ask yourself what are the causes of the political and economic instabilities, and whether they are largely (and increasingly) due to climate change...
- rudasn 3y ago
  .. Or European countries and their policies dating hundreds of years back.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    Oh yes, Eastern and Central Europe had famous colonies....
- 111111IIIIIII 3y ago
  Ask yourself the causes of climate change and you will be right back to political economy. Parent has a point.
111111IIIIIII 3y ago
Americans aren't capable of discussing political economy outright.

leaveyou 3y ago

[flagged]

jacquesm 3y ago

Unfortunately, probably 'yes'. And the degree to which we have so far proven to be unable to solve problems at that scale doesn't give me high hopes that we'll deal with this gracefully. Adapt, move or die seem to be the options on the table and 'die' is the default option if you fail at the other two.