7 ms·

I appreciate that they have maintained information density. otoh I think they should try and stick as much as possible to the looks of the OS where thunderbird

by joiqj 3y ago

I appreciate that they have maintained information density. otoh I think they should try and stick as much as possible to the looks of the OS where thunderbird is running - you are building a desktop application, not a website. Of course it's pretty hard when not even microsoft seems to know what Windows should look like.

PinguTS 3y ago
Remind you, that Microsoft wants go get rid of its Microsoft Office and will make it a Website only.
- joiqj 3y ago
  First, I don't think they'll be able to. I have had the displeasure of using their web Outlook client and it was absurdly buggy for a software company of the stature of Microsoft. I can only imagine how terrible the web version of a complex software like Excel will be. Not to mention the poor performance. There's no way they will lose all of their finance customers like that... but, it's Microsoft, so... who knows. Second, Office hasn't really looked like Windows for like... the past 20 years.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > I can only imagine how terrible the web version of a complex software like Excel will be. It's actually not that terrible, but I believe it's nowhere near feature parity. Not to mention there is a galaxy of add-ons that still need to be rewritten from scratch to work on the web version, and a lot of people cannot live without them. Excel is a classic case of 80% of users requiring 20% of all functionality, but that 20% being different for each user. Still, Microsoft made it very clear that the future is web-first.
    - joiqj 3y ago
      If you don't have feature parity, you really are in trouble, because then you are competing with Google Sheets, on which actually competent engineers are working.
      - speed_spread 3y ago
        It's not the competence of the individuals that makes the difference. Microsoft is also full of Very Smart People. Organizational structure and ego management strategies drive the engineering choices that lead to bad software.
      - tracker1 3y ago
        Sorry, but imo Office/Microsoft 365 passed Google's options a while ago and have only gotten farther ahead. Either work for my needs, and I'm shifting to self-hosted OnlyOffice, but MS is definitely ahead on this one.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      > feature parity They don't seem to care. For my part, LibreOffice Calc does all of what I want Excel to do, although not quite as smoothly. But I'm much happier donating to them than paying Microsoft.
  - PinguTS 3y ago
    Microsoft Outlook is already a web app at its core: "The point here being that Mail and Calendar are native Windows applications, whereas the new Outlook for Windows is essentially a web app at its core, from what we can tell." Native is dead as it seems, at least for he Microsoft Office Team. https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/20/microsoft_calendar_mail_outlook/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/20/microsoft_calendar_ma...
    - joiqj 3y ago
      Someone correct me if wrong but "outlook for windows" is not the same as "office outlook". The first one seems like it was created to fill the hole of outlook express and the mail app that came out later. i.e. the free email application that windows ships with.
      - dktnj 3y ago
        There are actually four "outlook" implementations now. 1. Outlook desktop - old MFC / win32 crapfest 2. Windows Mail / Calendar - new WPF crapfest. 3. O365 online outlook / outlook.com - fat web app. 4. "New" Outlook - this is a fat Electron style app based on the web app. The latter is actually pretty good - been using it for a couple of months. This is apparently going to replace all the other ones on the desktop.
        stevedh 3y ago
        5. iOS Outlook 6. MacOS Outlook
        tracker1 3y ago
        I think they're all heading in a direction to use the web-app as the core.
        kaba0 3y ago
        iOS Outlook is surprisingly good, though. Much better than gmail's and protonmail's ios clients.
  - guessbest 3y ago
    Users can't run macros or create macros in the office webapps. Seems like a major step backwards in usability. > Although you can't create, run, or edit VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) macros in Excel for the web, you can open and edit a workbook that contains macros. Any existing macros will remain in the workbook, and you can open the workbook in the Excel desktop app to view and edit the macros. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/work-with-vba-macros-in-excel-for-the-web-98784ad0-898c-43aa-a1da-4f0fb5014343 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/work-with-vba-mac...
    - tracker1 3y ago
      IIRC, there's work on a JS/TS capable macro API that can be used in the future. I will say, the effort MS has made to feature parity for Office's web interfaces is pretty impressive. I also say this as I've been planning to move my personal usage completely to self-host options (NextCloud, OnlyOffice, etc).
  - rayiner 3y ago
    "New Outlook" is so bad. And somehow still makes you go into a different webapp to handle todos?
- erremerre 3y ago
  OneNote was the first one to go from a full office program to be some Modern-UI program, and I have to say that the lost of features is concerning. Like now, you can't easily integrated excels in onenote. Yet, even with those limitations, it is still the mot powerful note application out there. So... I still use it. I imagine that it will be a similar situation with the rest of the office suite.
  - MikusR 3y ago
    That Modern one was the version that was actually usable, but they discontinued it.
- andix 3y ago
  This is only half true. They are still going to provide a hybrid application that will be usable offline. And there is a huge benefit: there may finally be feature parity for all platforms including Linux. Microsoft positions Outlook for big corporate customers. They often need extensibility in their clients. Preferably you implement them only once to run on any client (web, Windows, macOS, Linux, mobile, ...)
rhaway84773 3y ago
Thunderbird, for better or worse, has always had its own unique look. The reason is pretty simple. They don’t have the resources to create a “universal” design that works across OSes. And multi platform capabilities are one of the top goals for Thunderbird. I think it makes sense that they accept they’re unlikely to achieve a decent OS specific look and therefore they’re focused on creating its own unique style.
andix 3y ago
Information density can be very overwhelming and a factor for stress. Often a lower density is totally enough and less stressful to use. Providing an optional "compact mode" for people with smaller screens or who prefer denser layouts would be my way to go.
- precompute 3y ago
  > Information density can be very overwhelming and a factor for stress. Really? And what about tiny scrollbars?
  - andix 3y ago
    Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens scroll bars transformed mostly away from interactive UI components to scroll position indicators. Good components dynamically get bigger when you hover over them with your mouse or long press they on a touch screen.
    - sangriafria 3y ago
      Scroll indicators are fine if they stay visible. The default on mobiles and macOS is that the scroll indicator disappears once you stop scrolling. There was a webpage where I couldn't tell that an area was scrollable until I found out by accident, at which point I enabled the scrollbars to always show on macOS as I didn't want to get tripped up by that again
    - yetanother12345 3y ago
      > "Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens ..." Oh, how I hate that use of "we"! Please realize: "YOU" does not equal "EVERYONE" Personally (sample size 1) I use several different PC-like hardware units for productive work, as well as personal use. These units have different hardware/software/OS in general, but some applications are used cross-platform: Email is one. Hence the need for Thunderbird in the first place. I have been using it for no less than a decade and probably much longer - iow as long as I remember. The fact is that none (0, zero) of the total amount of hardware units I personally use _at_all_ "... have mouse wheels and touch screens" - not a single one. I am not a robot! I exist, and I'm a core user of that product (which has become increasingly annoying in multiple ways during the years - way too narrow scroll bars are actually a good example of the dev team undermining usability - but there is no feasible alternative). It seems the team is operating from some assumptions about user preferences that generally does not include (the likes of) me. (ADDED: which would be fine if my demands were higher than their aility to deliver, but that is not the case. I only ever use the very basic core functions (read, write, folders; not even search) - no UI features added the past 5-10 years have been relevant for me. All of them have cost me time/productivity as anything new in the UI (no matter how minor) requires a breach of habit and a new learning loop, even if just to ignore said new feature.) So, for the past couple of years my personal use of email has been on a steady decline. I just tend to avoid that kind of activity when/if I can. ADDED: Don't preach me webmail in replies please. I did write "there is no feasible alternative" because that was exactly what I ment to say. Same goes for "just join the dev team and make a change yourself". I have actually considered these, but then: There IS NO feasible alternative. And that is the singular reason I still have Thunderbird installed even if used sparingly these days
grishka 3y ago
Windows is pretty consistent if you ignore all the .net stuff. Just pretend that win32 is the only way to build Windows apps.

by joiqj 3y ago

PinguTS 3y ago

Remind you, that Microsoft wants go get rid of its Microsoft Office and will make it a Website only.

joiqj 3y ago
First, I don't think they'll be able to. I have had the displeasure of using their web Outlook client and it was absurdly buggy for a software company of the stature of Microsoft. I can only imagine how terrible the web version of a complex software like Excel will be. Not to mention the poor performance. There's no way they will lose all of their finance customers like that... but, it's Microsoft, so... who knows. Second, Office hasn't really looked like Windows for like... the past 20 years.
- toyg 3y ago
  > I can only imagine how terrible the web version of a complex software like Excel will be. It's actually not that terrible, but I believe it's nowhere near feature parity. Not to mention there is a galaxy of add-ons that still need to be rewritten from scratch to work on the web version, and a lot of people cannot live without them. Excel is a classic case of 80% of users requiring 20% of all functionality, but that 20% being different for each user. Still, Microsoft made it very clear that the future is web-first.
  - joiqj 3y ago
    If you don't have feature parity, you really are in trouble, because then you are competing with Google Sheets, on which actually competent engineers are working.
    - speed_spread 3y ago
      It's not the competence of the individuals that makes the difference. Microsoft is also full of Very Smart People. Organizational structure and ego management strategies drive the engineering choices that lead to bad software.
    - tracker1 3y ago
      Sorry, but imo Office/Microsoft 365 passed Google's options a while ago and have only gotten farther ahead. Either work for my needs, and I'm shifting to self-hosted OnlyOffice, but MS is definitely ahead on this one.
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    > feature parity They don't seem to care. For my part, LibreOffice Calc does all of what I want Excel to do, although not quite as smoothly. But I'm much happier donating to them than paying Microsoft.
- PinguTS 3y ago
  Microsoft Outlook is already a web app at its core: "The point here being that Mail and Calendar are native Windows applications, whereas the new Outlook for Windows is essentially a web app at its core, from what we can tell." Native is dead as it seems, at least for he Microsoft Office Team. https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/20/microsoft_calendar_mail_outlook/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/20/microsoft_calendar_ma...
  - joiqj 3y ago
    Someone correct me if wrong but "outlook for windows" is not the same as "office outlook". The first one seems like it was created to fill the hole of outlook express and the mail app that came out later. i.e. the free email application that windows ships with.
    - dktnj 3y ago
      There are actually four "outlook" implementations now. 1. Outlook desktop - old MFC / win32 crapfest 2. Windows Mail / Calendar - new WPF crapfest. 3. O365 online outlook / outlook.com - fat web app. 4. "New" Outlook - this is a fat Electron style app based on the web app. The latter is actually pretty good - been using it for a couple of months. This is apparently going to replace all the other ones on the desktop.
      - stevedh 3y ago
        5. iOS Outlook 6. MacOS Outlook
        tracker1 3y ago
        I think they're all heading in a direction to use the web-app as the core.
        kaba0 3y ago
        iOS Outlook is surprisingly good, though. Much better than gmail's and protonmail's ios clients.
- guessbest 3y ago
  Users can't run macros or create macros in the office webapps. Seems like a major step backwards in usability. > Although you can't create, run, or edit VBA (Visual Basic for Applications) macros in Excel for the web, you can open and edit a workbook that contains macros. Any existing macros will remain in the workbook, and you can open the workbook in the Excel desktop app to view and edit the macros. https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/work-with-vba-macros-in-excel-for-the-web-98784ad0-898c-43aa-a1da-4f0fb5014343 https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/work-with-vba-mac...
  - tracker1 3y ago
    IIRC, there's work on a JS/TS capable macro API that can be used in the future. I will say, the effort MS has made to feature parity for Office's web interfaces is pretty impressive. I also say this as I've been planning to move my personal usage completely to self-host options (NextCloud, OnlyOffice, etc).
- rayiner 3y ago
  "New Outlook" is so bad. And somehow still makes you go into a different webapp to handle todos?
erremerre 3y ago
OneNote was the first one to go from a full office program to be some Modern-UI program, and I have to say that the lost of features is concerning. Like now, you can't easily integrated excels in onenote. Yet, even with those limitations, it is still the mot powerful note application out there. So... I still use it. I imagine that it will be a similar situation with the rest of the office suite.
- MikusR 3y ago
  That Modern one was the version that was actually usable, but they discontinued it.
andix 3y ago
This is only half true. They are still going to provide a hybrid application that will be usable offline. And there is a huge benefit: there may finally be feature parity for all platforms including Linux. Microsoft positions Outlook for big corporate customers. They often need extensibility in their clients. Preferably you implement them only once to run on any client (web, Windows, macOS, Linux, mobile, ...)

rhaway84773 3y ago

Thunderbird, for better or worse, has always had its own unique look. The reason is pretty simple. They don’t have the resources to create a “universal” design that works across OSes. And multi platform capabilities are one of the top goals for Thunderbird. I think it makes sense that they accept they’re unlikely to achieve a decent OS specific look and therefore they’re focused on creating its own unique style.

andix 3y ago

Information density can be very overwhelming and a factor for stress. Often a lower density is totally enough and less stressful to use. Providing an optional "compact mode" for people with smaller screens or who prefer denser layouts would be my way to go.

precompute 3y ago
> Information density can be very overwhelming and a factor for stress. Really? And what about tiny scrollbars?
- andix 3y ago
  Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens scroll bars transformed mostly away from interactive UI components to scroll position indicators. Good components dynamically get bigger when you hover over them with your mouse or long press they on a touch screen.
  - sangriafria 3y ago
    Scroll indicators are fine if they stay visible. The default on mobiles and macOS is that the scroll indicator disappears once you stop scrolling. There was a webpage where I couldn't tell that an area was scrollable until I found out by accident, at which point I enabled the scrollbars to always show on macOS as I didn't want to get tripped up by that again
  - yetanother12345 3y ago
    > "Since we have mouse wheels and touch screens ..." Oh, how I hate that use of "we"! Please realize: "YOU" does not equal "EVERYONE" Personally (sample size 1) I use several different PC-like hardware units for productive work, as well as personal use. These units have different hardware/software/OS in general, but some applications are used cross-platform: Email is one. Hence the need for Thunderbird in the first place. I have been using it for no less than a decade and probably much longer - iow as long as I remember. The fact is that none (0, zero) of the total amount of hardware units I personally use _at_all_ "... have mouse wheels and touch screens" - not a single one. I am not a robot! I exist, and I'm a core user of that product (which has become increasingly annoying in multiple ways during the years - way too narrow scroll bars are actually a good example of the dev team undermining usability - but there is no feasible alternative). It seems the team is operating from some assumptions about user preferences that generally does not include (the likes of) me. (ADDED: which would be fine if my demands were higher than their aility to deliver, but that is not the case. I only ever use the very basic core functions (read, write, folders; not even search) - no UI features added the past 5-10 years have been relevant for me. All of them have cost me time/productivity as anything new in the UI (no matter how minor) requires a breach of habit and a new learning loop, even if just to ignore said new feature.) So, for the past couple of years my personal use of email has been on a steady decline. I just tend to avoid that kind of activity when/if I can. ADDED: Don't preach me webmail in replies please. I did write "there is no feasible alternative" because that was exactly what I ment to say. Same goes for "just join the dev team and make a change yourself". I have actually considered these, but then: There IS NO feasible alternative. And that is the singular reason I still have Thunderbird installed even if used sparingly these days

grishka 3y ago

Windows is pretty consistent if you ignore all the .net stuff. Just pretend that win32 is the only way to build Windows apps.