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> I'm just really tired of clueless mansplaining internet randos talking down to experts, as if they'd never heard of Xcode build warnings, which is absurd and

> I'm just really tired of clueless mansplaining internet randos talking down to experts, as if they'd never heard of Xcode build warnings, which is absurd and insulting. This is an unreasonable position to take on a forum where there are absolutely zero clues about the competence of the person in the thread. You may know who saagarjha (and lapcat) are, but there is absolutely nothing in any of your messages, or theirs, to indicate that they are professional Apple devs with decades of experience. If HN had flair, we might have a chance. But as it stands we have to contend with the fact that each and every HN contributor has to be treated as incompetent developers until they demonstrate otherwise... And it is incompetent developers - at Apple - that gave us this nonsense notification system in the first place.

lapcat 3y ago
> This is an unreasonable position to take on a forum where there are absolutely zero clues about the competence of the person in the thread. > each and every HN contributor has to be treated as incompetent developers until they demonstrate otherwise It's absolutely not unreasonable. On the contrary, the HN guidelines state "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (I realize that I've violated the guidelines here in my response to other guideline violations, which I'm not supposed to do, and I'll take my "punishment", whatever that happens to be.) > And it is incompetent developers - at Apple - that gave us this nonsense notification system in the first place. I'm inclined to think that it was more of a bureaucratic mess. There are tight timelines, lack of coordination among different teams, underspecified or conflicting requirements, etc.
- boffinAudio 3y ago
  >It's absolutely not unreasonable. We disagree, but that's our individual prerogative. I don't contend with the idea that one must kowtow to authorities on the basis of a single message thread - you only know of the competencies of saagarjha by stint of having interacted with them for years - it is entirely unreasonable to require others to have that same understanding, when literally nothing in this forum promotes any means by which to gain that understanding other than to follow individuals for years. If ssagarjha had prefaced their statements with "I'm an XXX dev with YYY years of experience on this subject, and my conclusion is .." then you'd have a point. But there was no such introduction - and thus it is absolutely unreasonable to expect other contributors to the thread to understand the prowess of the person whose opinions they are challenging. >"punishment" .. seems to be limited to having to deal with other, random strangers on the Internet, and whose competence you are yet to divulge from limited interactions... > bureaucratic mess All developer incompetence is bureaucratic mess, there is no other form of it. We are bureaucrats, not artists. Not even Apple can escape this fact, as we can see time and again with their low-effort, poor quality releases lately ..
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > We disagree, but that's our individual prerogative. It's not our individual prerogative. I again point to the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > >"punishment" > .. seems to be limited to having to deal with other, random strangers on the Internet, and whose competence you are yet to divulge from limited interactions... HN does have moderators. > Not even Apple can escape this fact, as we can see time and again with their low-effort, poor quality releases lately I blame upper management for that, i.e., Federighi and Cook.
    - boffinAudio 3y ago
      >It's not our individual prerogative I mean that it is entirely our prerogative to disagree on whether one should recognize an expert, immediately upon engaging with them. There's nothing in the HN guidelines that indicate otherwise - unless your point is that one should have respect for the potential experience of everyone one encounters on HN, which is fair. But I still contend that your position that we should all know saagarjhas' competence is entirely unreasonable. There are tens of thousands of such individuals here on HN, how are we supposed to know we're talking to the very founders of the technology we're discussing? Its unreasonable, but its your prerogative to make the statement, "don't argue with saagarjha, he's an expert", and its just as viable to see this is a "call to authority fallacy" designed to shut down honest, viable - and valuable - dialog that results from the challenge to this so-called authority. In other words I don't think you're applying the HN guideliness effectively. Please let people challenge experts - its important to our community, after all. >Federighi and Cook. Never accept technical management from someone who can't do your job. This is Peter Principle, 101. Someone at Apple is dropping a lot of balls lately, and it shows in the very poor quality of their releases over the last few years. The notification system is entirely dysfunctional, on both iOS and MacOS - I would wager the bureaucrats don't actually use these tools.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Meanwhile, why and how would they know who "saagarjha"is and whether they're an expert? Are they supposed to be famous, I mean Carmack or Lattner famous no "they are known in some circles". Even if they visit their blog, they can just see: "Hi, I'm Saagar Jha. I'm a software engineer from Cupertino, California, but I spend an inordinate amount of time in the southern part of the state" and a list of smaller projects and experiments.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >It's absolutely not unreasonable. On the contrary, the HN guidelines state "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." How does that fit with accusing the other person of "mainsplaining", of purposefully disrespecting an "authority" (sic), assuming they would have known who the other person is and it's only because of their audacity they responded as if they might have possibly missed something basic, and so on?
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > How does that fit with accusing the other person of "mansplaining" It doesn't, as I said in the very comment you're replying to: "I realize that I've violated the guidelines here in my response to other guideline violations". > assuming they would have known who the other person That wasn't my assumption. Although one ought to know who the submitted article author is, as that information is easy to obtain directly from the article. > they responded as if they might have possibly missed something basic That's the problematic part. We're not required to know who the HN commenters are, but we are required by the HN guidelines to treat them with respect and respond to the most charitable interpretation of their words. My complaint isn't "You don't know saagarjha". Rather, my complaint is "You're assuming that saagarjha is an incompetent idiot, but saagarjha just so happens to be extremely competent and knowledgeable." Moreover, Cycl0p created a HN account yesterday for the sole purpose of replying "Nonsense" to saagarjha https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Cycl0p https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Cycl0p Do you not see a problem there?

lapcat 3y ago

> This is an unreasonable position to take on a forum where there are absolutely zero clues about the competence of the person in the thread. > each and every HN contributor has to be treated as incompetent developers until they demonstrate otherwise It's absolutely not unreasonable. On the contrary, the HN guidelines state "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html (I realize that I've violated the guidelines here in my response to other guideline violations, which I'm not supposed to do, and I'll take my "punishment", whatever that happens to be.) > And it is incompetent developers - at Apple - that gave us this nonsense notification system in the first place. I'm inclined to think that it was more of a bureaucratic mess. There are tight timelines, lack of coordination among different teams, underspecified or conflicting requirements, etc.

boffinAudio 3y ago
>It's absolutely not unreasonable. We disagree, but that's our individual prerogative. I don't contend with the idea that one must kowtow to authorities on the basis of a single message thread - you only know of the competencies of saagarjha by stint of having interacted with them for years - it is entirely unreasonable to require others to have that same understanding, when literally nothing in this forum promotes any means by which to gain that understanding other than to follow individuals for years. If ssagarjha had prefaced their statements with "I'm an XXX dev with YYY years of experience on this subject, and my conclusion is .." then you'd have a point. But there was no such introduction - and thus it is absolutely unreasonable to expect other contributors to the thread to understand the prowess of the person whose opinions they are challenging. >"punishment" .. seems to be limited to having to deal with other, random strangers on the Internet, and whose competence you are yet to divulge from limited interactions... > bureaucratic mess All developer incompetence is bureaucratic mess, there is no other form of it. We are bureaucrats, not artists. Not even Apple can escape this fact, as we can see time and again with their low-effort, poor quality releases lately ..
- lapcat 3y ago
  > We disagree, but that's our individual prerogative. It's not our individual prerogative. I again point to the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > >"punishment" > .. seems to be limited to having to deal with other, random strangers on the Internet, and whose competence you are yet to divulge from limited interactions... HN does have moderators. > Not even Apple can escape this fact, as we can see time and again with their low-effort, poor quality releases lately I blame upper management for that, i.e., Federighi and Cook.
  - boffinAudio 3y ago
    >It's not our individual prerogative I mean that it is entirely our prerogative to disagree on whether one should recognize an expert, immediately upon engaging with them. There's nothing in the HN guidelines that indicate otherwise - unless your point is that one should have respect for the potential experience of everyone one encounters on HN, which is fair. But I still contend that your position that we should all know saagarjhas' competence is entirely unreasonable. There are tens of thousands of such individuals here on HN, how are we supposed to know we're talking to the very founders of the technology we're discussing? Its unreasonable, but its your prerogative to make the statement, "don't argue with saagarjha, he's an expert", and its just as viable to see this is a "call to authority fallacy" designed to shut down honest, viable - and valuable - dialog that results from the challenge to this so-called authority. In other words I don't think you're applying the HN guideliness effectively. Please let people challenge experts - its important to our community, after all. >Federighi and Cook. Never accept technical management from someone who can't do your job. This is Peter Principle, 101. Someone at Apple is dropping a lot of balls lately, and it shows in the very poor quality of their releases over the last few years. The notification system is entirely dysfunctional, on both iOS and MacOS - I would wager the bureaucrats don't actually use these tools.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Meanwhile, why and how would they know who "saagarjha"is and whether they're an expert? Are they supposed to be famous, I mean Carmack or Lattner famous no "they are known in some circles". Even if they visit their blog, they can just see: "Hi, I'm Saagar Jha. I'm a software engineer from Cupertino, California, but I spend an inordinate amount of time in the southern part of the state" and a list of smaller projects and experiments.
coldtea 3y ago
>It's absolutely not unreasonable. On the contrary, the HN guidelines state "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize." How does that fit with accusing the other person of "mainsplaining", of purposefully disrespecting an "authority" (sic), assuming they would have known who the other person is and it's only because of their audacity they responded as if they might have possibly missed something basic, and so on?
- lapcat 3y ago
  > How does that fit with accusing the other person of "mansplaining" It doesn't, as I said in the very comment you're replying to: "I realize that I've violated the guidelines here in my response to other guideline violations". > assuming they would have known who the other person That wasn't my assumption. Although one ought to know who the submitted article author is, as that information is easy to obtain directly from the article. > they responded as if they might have possibly missed something basic That's the problematic part. We're not required to know who the HN commenters are, but we are required by the HN guidelines to treat them with respect and respond to the most charitable interpretation of their words. My complaint isn't "You don't know saagarjha". Rather, my complaint is "You're assuming that saagarjha is an incompetent idiot, but saagarjha just so happens to be extremely competent and knowledgeable." Moreover, Cycl0p created a HN account yesterday for the sole purpose of replying "Nonsense" to saagarjha https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Cycl0p https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Cycl0p Do you not see a problem there?