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Penn Jillette says that Randi inspired him in his ethical beliefs. > There's no such thing as magic, there's no such thing as a supernatural. And I don't care

by yreg 3y ago

Penn Jillette says that Randi inspired him in his ethical beliefs. > There's no such thing as magic, there's no such thing as a supernatural. And I don't care if it's a sick kid or a healthy adult, you do not lie. I never ever want to leave someone believing that magic is real. That would be morally wrong.

TheAceOfHearts 3y ago
This might be a bit pedantic, but I've never liked the term "supernatural", it's tautologically meaningless. If there were aliens or magical beasts roaming around, they would be natural. As for magic, I despise people that claim magic isn't real. The world is made of magic and it's all around us. When you lose the ability to recognize the magic of reality you die a little inside and the world becomes a little bit less bright. The fact that the term magic gets hijacked to mean something negative and harmful is bullshit, and it should be reclaimed.
- pyinstallwoes 3y ago
  I have found truth in your take recently in my life when previously (majority) I was against such a notion. Out of curiosity, could you expand on what you might be able to describe as magic from your perspective? I understand it is a slippery _thing_ or _suchness_ to describe but I appreciate any attempt. Thanks!
  - peteradio 3y ago
    I realize you are asking OP so pardon me, but Physics appears to be completely arbitrary at its root. That arbitrariness to me kind of looks like magic.
    - pyinstallwoes 3y ago
      Essentially since it all stems from a dimensionless one OF zero :P
- beowulfey 3y ago
  Magic is the word for the gap in our understanding when we witness something that we don’t understand. I love your interpretation of the importance of magic in maintaining our sense of wonder in the world.
  - Gud 3y ago
    I don’t think so that is the correct interpretation of magic. Does Gandalf not know what he is doing when he casts his spells?
    - justaj 3y ago
      We also don't fully seem to understand (electro)magneticism, yet almost everyone is using it daily :)
- Jedd 3y ago
  > If there were aliens or magical beasts roaming around, they would be natural. Sure, and if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bicycle. I think the two categories you describe are orthogonal - rational people are open to the potential of alien life forms, but, similarly, would deny the possibility of 'magical beasts'. (Depending on what 'magical beasts' might actually entail - your second paragraph seems to re-purpose the word to something closer to fascinating, if I'm reading that right. Though in context it feels more like supernatural than merely wondrous.)
- ohbleek 3y ago
  I couldn’t disagree more. Magic is not real. The “magic” of reality is precisely found in its non-magical roots. Nothing is more beautiful than an understanding of the natural world. Fully understanding how the universe works illuminates the world and makes life brighter. The hand-waving act of calling something magic robs the us of that enlightenment. If you mean to say “wondrous” or “fascinating” in your use of the term “magic” then yes, we should strive to hold on to the wonder of life. But we can’t claim that the word “magic” means something that it does not. I came to this conclusion after being raised in a religion that discounted and discredited any explanation of how the world came into existence outside of simply saying it was created by god. As I learned about science I realized that to believe god created the universe by the wave of a hand was to rob the universe of it’s beauty. I realize that some overlap can exist between these ideas but in general, that is not the norm.
dr_dshiv 3y ago
Of course there is such thing as magic, our clients keep asking for it. Telling them “magical experiences don’t exist” seems a bit dim. Most of the way these rationalists deal with magic is to simply define magic as something that doesn’t exist. Big win, there. People say “Magic is just a psychological phenomenon” as though that is somehow reducing its power or purpose. Creating magic is a big part of many people’s jobs. That said, one of my favorite books is by the first president of the Royal Society, titled “Mathematicall Magick”. It deals with Natural Magick — a concept that helped transition the Renaissance to the scientific and Industrial Revolutions.
- yreg 3y ago
  > Most of the way these rationalists deal with magic is to simply define magic as something that doesn’t exist. Big win, there. What Penn means here is that there is no such thing as a superpower to mentally bend metal. Tricks exist, experiencing magic exists, but there is no wizardry involved.
  - peteradio 3y ago
    Yes but you can bend metal, and that is magic!
- dr_dshiv 3y ago
  Magic is a complex, multifaceted and ancient collection of phenomena that will resist tight definitions. That said, one way to define magic is “the capacity to manifest immaterial ideas into physical reality.” Another definition might be “the ability to use rituals or artifacts to produce desired outcomes through hidden or inscrutable means.” A mundane example is architectural decoration, which can change the surrounding neighborhood vibe in a palpable way—but good luck trying to define and validate a physical model of how that psychological phenomenon takes place. Being open to a bit of magic doesn’t mean turning off rationality or believing in Uri Geller. But it might mean believing in charisma and vibes, even if they evade rational modeling. Music, for instance, is filled with magic. And people often like to be enchanted!
  - deleted 3y ago

by yreg 3y ago

TheAceOfHearts 3y ago

This might be a bit pedantic, but I've never liked the term "supernatural", it's tautologically meaningless. If there were aliens or magical beasts roaming around, they would be natural. As for magic, I despise people that claim magic isn't real. The world is made of magic and it's all around us. When you lose the ability to recognize the magic of reality you die a little inside and the world becomes a little bit less bright. The fact that the term magic gets hijacked to mean something negative and harmful is bullshit, and it should be reclaimed.

pyinstallwoes 3y ago
I have found truth in your take recently in my life when previously (majority) I was against such a notion. Out of curiosity, could you expand on what you might be able to describe as magic from your perspective? I understand it is a slippery _thing_ or _suchness_ to describe but I appreciate any attempt. Thanks!
- peteradio 3y ago
  I realize you are asking OP so pardon me, but Physics appears to be completely arbitrary at its root. That arbitrariness to me kind of looks like magic.
  - pyinstallwoes 3y ago
    Essentially since it all stems from a dimensionless one OF zero :P
beowulfey 3y ago
Magic is the word for the gap in our understanding when we witness something that we don’t understand. I love your interpretation of the importance of magic in maintaining our sense of wonder in the world.
- Gud 3y ago
  I don’t think so that is the correct interpretation of magic. Does Gandalf not know what he is doing when he casts his spells?
  - justaj 3y ago
    We also don't fully seem to understand (electro)magneticism, yet almost everyone is using it daily :)
Jedd 3y ago
> If there were aliens or magical beasts roaming around, they would be natural. Sure, and if my grandmother had wheels she would have been a bicycle. I think the two categories you describe are orthogonal - rational people are open to the potential of alien life forms, but, similarly, would deny the possibility of 'magical beasts'. (Depending on what 'magical beasts' might actually entail - your second paragraph seems to re-purpose the word to something closer to fascinating, if I'm reading that right. Though in context it feels more like supernatural than merely wondrous.)
ohbleek 3y ago
I couldn’t disagree more. Magic is not real. The “magic” of reality is precisely found in its non-magical roots. Nothing is more beautiful than an understanding of the natural world. Fully understanding how the universe works illuminates the world and makes life brighter. The hand-waving act of calling something magic robs the us of that enlightenment. If you mean to say “wondrous” or “fascinating” in your use of the term “magic” then yes, we should strive to hold on to the wonder of life. But we can’t claim that the word “magic” means something that it does not. I came to this conclusion after being raised in a religion that discounted and discredited any explanation of how the world came into existence outside of simply saying it was created by god. As I learned about science I realized that to believe god created the universe by the wave of a hand was to rob the universe of it’s beauty. I realize that some overlap can exist between these ideas but in general, that is not the norm.

dr_dshiv 3y ago

Of course there is such thing as magic, our clients keep asking for it. Telling them “magical experiences don’t exist” seems a bit dim. Most of the way these rationalists deal with magic is to simply define magic as something that doesn’t exist. Big win, there. People say “Magic is just a psychological phenomenon” as though that is somehow reducing its power or purpose. Creating magic is a big part of many people’s jobs. That said, one of my favorite books is by the first president of the Royal Society, titled “Mathematicall Magick”. It deals with Natural Magick — a concept that helped transition the Renaissance to the scientific and Industrial Revolutions.

yreg 3y ago
> Most of the way these rationalists deal with magic is to simply define magic as something that doesn’t exist. Big win, there. What Penn means here is that there is no such thing as a superpower to mentally bend metal. Tricks exist, experiencing magic exists, but there is no wizardry involved.
- peteradio 3y ago
  Yes but you can bend metal, and that is magic!
dr_dshiv 3y ago
Magic is a complex, multifaceted and ancient collection of phenomena that will resist tight definitions. That said, one way to define magic is “the capacity to manifest immaterial ideas into physical reality.” Another definition might be “the ability to use rituals or artifacts to produce desired outcomes through hidden or inscrutable means.” A mundane example is architectural decoration, which can change the surrounding neighborhood vibe in a palpable way—but good luck trying to define and validate a physical model of how that psychological phenomenon takes place. Being open to a bit of magic doesn’t mean turning off rationality or believing in Uri Geller. But it might mean believing in charisma and vibes, even if they evade rational modeling. Music, for instance, is filled with magic. And people often like to be enchanted!
- deleted 3y ago