5 ms·

Do you know if PFAS are only present in meat? Are plants also affected?

by dmbche 3y ago

quartz 3y ago
I'm no expert on this and my interest has purely been from doing a home filter setup in an NYC apartment and trying to figure out what the best practices are, but my understanding is plants can also be impacted through uptake but there isn't too much evidence it's resulting in higher levels outside of known PFAS hotspots. The FDA suggests that the primary issue at least in the US right now is seafood[1]. [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/process-contaminants-food/questions-and-answers-pfas-food https://www.fda.gov/food/process-contaminants-food/questions...
- origin5 3y ago
  > filter setup in an NYC apartment Can you explain the conclusion of your research? I'm in the exact same situation and currently looking so it would be immensely helpful. Thank you.
HWR_14 3y ago
Most forever pollutants have greater concentrations as you go up the food chain. The grass has 1ppm, the cow eats 100x it's body weight over its lifetime, and cannot eliminate the pollutant so it gets up to 100ppm. Add in a few more levels and it can really ratchet up the dosage.
- idontwantthis 3y ago
  I wonder if it’s worth it to filter the water you drink. If that’s at the bottom of the chain then would the amount you get from food (especially meat) vastly dwarf the amount you directly drink?
  - tohnjitor 3y ago
    But what is the water filter made from? What if it's also dependent on PFOA?
    - idontwantthis 3y ago
      Also a good question, but mine still stands. Do we get an significant amount of this directly from water?
      - tohnjitor 3y ago
        I wish I knew, or maybe I don't. Sometimes it seems too late to be rid of these substances.
  - ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
    Eventually it will accummulate in humans, so we treat humans as toxic waste?
    - staunton 3y ago
      To some degree, we do that already.
    - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
      Human bodies are already considered as such after death.
  - ada1981 3y ago
    I’ve heard some people still consider “meat” to be food.
    - tacocataco 3y ago
      Are you talking about the lab grown meat or meat substitutes? The lab grown stuff might be the only way we can eat meat without these chemicals in it now.
      - ada1981 3y ago
        I’m talking about the stuff you get by killing animals.
- pvaldes 3y ago
  Is more complicated than that. If those chemicals are lipophilic substances (attracted by fat) then cows should accumulate more. But if they are hydrophilic substances, attracted by water, we need to remember that lettuce is 96% water. One Kg of meat is rich energy food and not equivalent to Kg of lettuce. We would need to eat much more Kg of lettuce for the same. As we are talking about chocolate pie I assume that they are lipohilic. But vegetables aren't an homogeneous group and some seeds and fruits have a lot of oil. We could find that meat is safer than some of them and expect a much higher variability inside the group than with meat.
  - hammock 3y ago
    PFAS are extremely hydrophobic… that is one of their main appeals
    - pvaldes 3y ago
      I assume this, but I don't know every chemical in this group. What is strange is that Kale does not seem like a very oily plant (in my opinion, could be wrong). This species store sugars as chill protection. The main question to ask here is if this chemicals are causing chronic inflammation and in that case if is related with the obesity epidemic. We know that people living in the upper course of the rivers and allegedly drink better quality water are less obese on average. A possible null hypothese to start could be: A body accumulating toxic substances in the fat cells, could react making more fat cells as a defense (to dilute the poison by cell)?. Are somebody checking if the areas with more chemicals in the water show a higher average of Body Mass Index?
randycupertino 3y ago
"Disturbing" levels were found in 7/8 samples from kale at various US supermarkets: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfas-forever-chemicals-contamination https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfa... > Seven out of eight US kale samples recently tested for toxic PFAS “forever chemicals” contained high levels of the compounds. > The testing looked at conventional and organic kale bought at grocery stores across the country, and comes after Food and Drug Administration analyses conducted between 2019 and 2021 found no PFAS contamination. > The findings “stunned” researchers who expected to find low levels of the chemicals, said Robert Verkerk, founder of the Alliance for Natural Health non-profit, which produced the paper. >“It’s pretty scary and there’s no easy solution,” he said, adding that the findings highlight the need for the FDA to implement a more robust PFAS testing program for the nation’s food supply.
CobaltFire 3y ago
Seems at least kale [0] is affected, with the suspected pathway being more common for organic (organic fertilizer). This bothers me, as we do like our kale in the house. Still better than meat I suppose. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfas-forever-chemicals-contamination https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfa...
somenameforme 3y ago
The EU is, typically, doing a far better job of researching this than the FDA. The latter of which seems almost entirely driven by corporate interests at this point. There's a paper from the EU here [1] which is far too verbose, but offers some interesting data: - For PFOS and PFOA, ‘Fish and other seafood’ was the most important contributor to the mean exposure, followed by ‘Eggs and egg products’, ‘Meat and meat products’, and ‘Fruit and fruit products’. For PFOA, ‘Vegetables and vegetable products’ and ‘Drinking water’ were also important contributors. For several of the other PFASs, ‘Fish and other seafood’, ‘Fruit and fruit products, ‘Vegetables and vegetable products’, ‘Drinking water’, as well as ‘Starchy roots and tubers’ were the most important food groups. - Diet is the major source of PFAS exposure for most of the population, but other routes such as dust ingestion and indoor air inhalation may also contribute substantially - PFASs are transferred from soil to plants. In general, transfer rates are higher for the short chain PFASs and decrease from roots to leaves to fruits. - In food producing animals, PFASs transfer from feed to animal derived food like milk, eggs and meat, with clear differences between species and the type of PFAS. This is also relevant for soil ingestion by foraging farm animals --- I think the conclusion is that everything is potentially exposed, so the individual source is more important than the type of medium. Another somewhat interesting article [2] showed how a sampled chocolate cake ended up with extremely high levels. It (probably) wasn't even from the cake itself, but from a chemical used to greaseproof paper at some point in its production. So my take from that would be, as always, to consume foods which have gone through minimal processing before getting to you. [1] - https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2020.6223 https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa... [2] - https://blogs.edf.org/health/2019/06/03/fda-high-levels-pfas-chocolate-cake/ https://blogs.edf.org/health/2019/06/03/fda-high-levels-pfas...
- tfourb 3y ago
  Do you know if the contamination of fruits/vegetables is due to the contact with earth (i.e. superficial and could theoretically be rinsed off or something) or is it actually "ingested" by the plant?
chaostheory 3y ago
You didn’t ask this, but I’m pretty sure the dental floss we used to use had it. I believe it went by the brand name of Glide
throwaway742 3y ago
I grew up in an agricultural area and the water was completely untreated. It was literally a canal from the river that was then sprayed onto fields. It wasn't uncommon to have to clean out small fish from the irrigation pump's filter. Sometimes you'd lose water pressure completely and have to drive down to the irrigation ditch and clean a racoon carcass or something out of the intake grate.

Do you know if PFAS are only present in meat? Are plants also affected?

by dmbche 3y ago

Do you know if PFAS are only present in meat? Are plants also affected?

I'm no expert on this and my interest has purely been from doing a home filter setup in an NYC apartment and trying to figure out what the best practices are, but my understanding is plants can also be impacted through uptake but there isn't too much evidence it's resulting in higher levels outside of known PFAS hotspots. The FDA suggests that the primary issue at least in the US right now is seafood[1]. [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/process-contaminants-food/questions-and-answers-pfas-food https://www.fda.gov/food/process-contaminants-food/questions...

origin5 3y ago
> filter setup in an NYC apartment Can you explain the conclusion of your research? I'm in the exact same situation and currently looking so it would be immensely helpful. Thank you.

HWR_14 3y ago

Most forever pollutants have greater concentrations as you go up the food chain. The grass has 1ppm, the cow eats 100x it's body weight over its lifetime, and cannot eliminate the pollutant so it gets up to 100ppm. Add in a few more levels and it can really ratchet up the dosage.

idontwantthis 3y ago
I wonder if it’s worth it to filter the water you drink. If that’s at the bottom of the chain then would the amount you get from food (especially meat) vastly dwarf the amount you directly drink?
- tohnjitor 3y ago
  But what is the water filter made from? What if it's also dependent on PFOA?
  - idontwantthis 3y ago
    Also a good question, but mine still stands. Do we get an significant amount of this directly from water?
    - tohnjitor 3y ago
      I wish I knew, or maybe I don't. Sometimes it seems too late to be rid of these substances.
- ikekkdcjkfke 3y ago
  Eventually it will accummulate in humans, so we treat humans as toxic waste?
  - staunton 3y ago
    To some degree, we do that already.
  - BiteCode_dev 3y ago
    Human bodies are already considered as such after death.
- ada1981 3y ago
  I’ve heard some people still consider “meat” to be food.
  - tacocataco 3y ago
    Are you talking about the lab grown meat or meat substitutes? The lab grown stuff might be the only way we can eat meat without these chemicals in it now.
    - ada1981 3y ago
      I’m talking about the stuff you get by killing animals.
pvaldes 3y ago
Is more complicated than that. If those chemicals are lipophilic substances (attracted by fat) then cows should accumulate more. But if they are hydrophilic substances, attracted by water, we need to remember that lettuce is 96% water. One Kg of meat is rich energy food and not equivalent to Kg of lettuce. We would need to eat much more Kg of lettuce for the same. As we are talking about chocolate pie I assume that they are lipohilic. But vegetables aren't an homogeneous group and some seeds and fruits have a lot of oil. We could find that meat is safer than some of them and expect a much higher variability inside the group than with meat.
- hammock 3y ago
  PFAS are extremely hydrophobic… that is one of their main appeals
  - pvaldes 3y ago
    I assume this, but I don't know every chemical in this group. What is strange is that Kale does not seem like a very oily plant (in my opinion, could be wrong). This species store sugars as chill protection. The main question to ask here is if this chemicals are causing chronic inflammation and in that case if is related with the obesity epidemic. We know that people living in the upper course of the rivers and allegedly drink better quality water are less obese on average. A possible null hypothese to start could be: A body accumulating toxic substances in the fat cells, could react making more fat cells as a defense (to dilute the poison by cell)?. Are somebody checking if the areas with more chemicals in the water show a higher average of Body Mass Index?

randycupertino 3y ago

"Disturbing" levels were found in 7/8 samples from kale at various US supermarkets: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfas-forever-chemicals-contamination https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfa... > Seven out of eight US kale samples recently tested for toxic PFAS “forever chemicals” contained high levels of the compounds. > The testing looked at conventional and organic kale bought at grocery stores across the country, and comes after Food and Drug Administration analyses conducted between 2019 and 2021 found no PFAS contamination. > The findings “stunned” researchers who expected to find low levels of the chemicals, said Robert Verkerk, founder of the Alliance for Natural Health non-profit, which produced the paper. >“It’s pretty scary and there’s no easy solution,” he said, adding that the findings highlight the need for the FDA to implement a more robust PFAS testing program for the nation’s food supply.

CobaltFire 3y ago

Seems at least kale [0] is affected, with the suspected pathway being more common for organic (organic fertilizer). This bothers me, as we do like our kale in the house. Still better than meat I suppose. [0]: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfas-forever-chemicals-contamination https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jun/30/kale-pfa...

somenameforme 3y ago

The EU is, typically, doing a far better job of researching this than the FDA. The latter of which seems almost entirely driven by corporate interests at this point. There's a paper from the EU here [1] which is far too verbose, but offers some interesting data: - For PFOS and PFOA, ‘Fish and other seafood’ was the most important contributor to the mean exposure, followed by ‘Eggs and egg products’, ‘Meat and meat products’, and ‘Fruit and fruit products’. For PFOA, ‘Vegetables and vegetable products’ and ‘Drinking water’ were also important contributors. For several of the other PFASs, ‘Fish and other seafood’, ‘Fruit and fruit products, ‘Vegetables and vegetable products’, ‘Drinking water’, as well as ‘Starchy roots and tubers’ were the most important food groups. - Diet is the major source of PFAS exposure for most of the population, but other routes such as dust ingestion and indoor air inhalation may also contribute substantially - PFASs are transferred from soil to plants. In general, transfer rates are higher for the short chain PFASs and decrease from roots to leaves to fruits. - In food producing animals, PFASs transfer from feed to animal derived food like milk, eggs and meat, with clear differences between species and the type of PFAS. This is also relevant for soil ingestion by foraging farm animals --- I think the conclusion is that everything is potentially exposed, so the individual source is more important than the type of medium. Another somewhat interesting article [2] showed how a sampled chocolate cake ended up with extremely high levels. It (probably) wasn't even from the cake itself, but from a chemical used to greaseproof paper at some point in its production. So my take from that would be, as always, to consume foods which have gone through minimal processing before getting to you. [1] - https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa.2020.6223 https://efsa.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.2903/j.efsa... [2] - https://blogs.edf.org/health/2019/06/03/fda-high-levels-pfas-chocolate-cake/ https://blogs.edf.org/health/2019/06/03/fda-high-levels-pfas...

tfourb 3y ago
Do you know if the contamination of fruits/vegetables is due to the contact with earth (i.e. superficial and could theoretically be rinsed off or something) or is it actually "ingested" by the plant?

chaostheory 3y ago

You didn’t ask this, but I’m pretty sure the dental floss we used to use had it. I believe it went by the brand name of Glide

throwaway742 3y ago

I grew up in an agricultural area and the water was completely untreated. It was literally a canal from the river that was then sprayed onto fields. It wasn't uncommon to have to clean out small fish from the irrigation pump's filter. Sometimes you'd lose water pressure completely and have to drive down to the irrigation ditch and clean a racoon carcass or something out of the intake grate.