5 ms·

This is not a particularly new direction for Apple. I just bought a Mac Studio and set it up today. Latest and greatest non-beta (Ventura 13.4.1). I'm not even

by masto 3y ago

This is not a particularly new direction for Apple. I just bought a Mac Studio and set it up today. Latest and greatest non-beta (Ventura 13.4.1). I'm not even trying to do anything particularly adventurous, just install a basic suite of applications and get to the point where I can use my machine. I have been besieged by dialogs, popups, and notifications asking me to give a program access to a file or removable disk or my downloads folder, or "informing" me that a setting has been changed, or that something will run on startup, or most intrusively, in half a dozen cases, preventing a program from working until I open the security preferences and find the "Allow" button. At one point, after rebooting my computer - a required step in the 10-minute process of updating the firmware for my fresh out of the box Apple monitor - I got a dialog that said "The application 1Password is not open anymore" (exactly like https://us.v-cdn.net/5020219/uploads/editor/w1/apqiiyi6lwer.png https://us.v-cdn.net/5020219/uploads/editor/w1/apqiiyi6lwer....). Clicking the help button opened the classic Apple help panel that grinds your computer to a halt and, in this case, displayed a blank white window. I spent a few seconds trying to puzzle this one out, ending on an Apple discussion forum (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252590137 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/252590137) with the again-classic mode for those forums where derision and insults are provided in lieu of assistance. I fell in love with the "it just works" and "an actually usable GUI plus Unix under the hood" and "they actually sweat the small stuff" aspects of the Mac experience that drew a lot of us to the platform in the early days of OS X. Over time, the shine has worn off and many patches have tarnished or even rusted through. The user-annoyance-factor difference between modern Windows and macOS is very slight.

CharlesW 3y ago
> I have been besieged by dialogs, popups, and notifications asking me to give a program access to a file or removable disk or my downloads folder, or "informing" me that a setting has been changed, or that something will run on startup, or most intrusively, in half a dozen cases, preventing a program from working until I open the security preferences and find the "Allow" button. I grant you, this experience sucks. Was it better before, when everything had carte blanche to do what it liked without your knowledge/consent? (My intent isn't to lead the witness — I have my preference, but am curious what you think.)
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Not OP but pretty much in the same boat. > Was it better before, when everything had carte blanche to do what it liked without your knowledge/consent? Yes. The caveat is I'm using a very stable set of programs, that I spent a long time to decide if I was OK with giving access to a lot of my critical information. I'm using Karabiner since it exists, and it's a worse experience and performance as it is now than when it was running unprotected and full carte blanche. Same with Bitwarden, it already has all my life's passwords, giving it access to read my screen is just an additional annoyance. At some point VSCode could also go rogue, but I'll be more worried with it leaking my SSH keys than recording my face when I'm coding.
  - cmsj 3y ago
    The caveat is that you know what you're doing. Most people don't. Computers are made for most people. The era of computers being made for people like us, is long gone. (We did this to ourselves, by constantly trying to make computers easier to use, and telling everyone else they should have one)
    - janfoeh 3y ago
      Yes, but … no. > (We did this to ourselves, by constantly trying to make computers easier to use, and telling everyone else they should have one) Agreed. However: most people never wanted a computer, they only wanted to do certain computer-y things. And they don't have to anymore! We now have this new breed of wondrous, computer-y devices which are less capable, but in return are also a lot easier to use. It's here, it's absolutely ubiquitous and it is roughly good enough most of the time. The worlds of "smart" devices and general computing machines could have, _should_ have coexisted perfectly next to each other. That Apple is slowly but surely merging the two is a massive, unnecessary, foolhardy mistake that is on them and them alone.
    - makeitdouble 3y ago
      Thing is, these people already have better options. Enterprise "businessy" people already have fully managed enterprise Windows, large education fleets and low computing needs organizations can be served by Chromebooks or iPads. We're the ones stuck in a state where linux is still too compromised, Windows lacks polish, and now macos has iOS-ified to the point it becomes an hinderance but without getting the real advantages (touch support etc.). I'm patientely waiting for a shift to happen, in the meantime jumping to Windows looks like the more pragmatic solution, how crazy it may sound.
kickaha 3y ago
[2008 me] fell in love with the "it just works" and "an actually usable GUI plus Unix under the hood" and "they actually sweat the small stuff" [...] [By 2018, say] The user-annoyance-factor difference between modern Windows and macOS is very slight. Could not have said it better myself.
LakeBoat 3y ago
>The user-annoyance-factor difference between modern Windows and macOS is very slight. You’re still wearing the rose-tinted glasses. MacOS is not able to (natively): 1. Allow the trackpad to scroll “natively” and a mouse to “normal” scroll. 2. Scale for an external display without a specific PPI. The PPI is so high there’s only a couple monitors that support it on the market. 3. Display crisp text on a non-high-PPI screen (as above). 4. Allow the user to edit or remove the horrendous mouse acceleration curve. 5. Allow users to select minimized windows with Alt+Tab. 6. Allow users to snap windows. 7. Etc etc. I’m stunned I can’t scale stuff on my 4k monitor, adjust the mouse, or be productive with alt-tab. Gorgeous hardware, but wow, I’m stunned you guys (and girls) can use this seriously.
- 1over137 3y ago
  >Scale for an external display without a specific PPI. Be happy they still let you use non-Apple external monitors! :)
  - LakeBoat 3y ago
    Ha! Hilarious you said that. I was planning on purchasing their display until I learned it’d take a decent effort to use it with my work laptop (windows). So, part way there?
    - LoganDark 3y ago
      Hell, you even need a custom third-party driver to use the multitouch trackpads on Windows. They are the best trackpads money can buy though, so I use one with my desktop.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  On the other hand, I read that as a laundry list of “things to make it work exactly like Windows”. I’ve used a Mac for a lot of years now and none of those have ever bothered me. I’m not saying you’re wrong for wanting them. I’m saying you’re wrong to assume that everyone else does, too.
morganw 3y ago
Used to be something Vista was laughed at for. Oh, how the turn tables https://youtu.be/0eEG5LVXdKo?t=637 https://youtu.be/0eEG5LVXdKo?t=637
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Things have improved a whole lot since then. Used to be that as soon as you opened any app, it just requested full admin access to everything. Now its that you try to share the screen and you get a popup asking if you want to allow sharing the screen. It's actionable now. You can use an app without allowing the permission request, and the permission request is tied to when you try to use the function rather than at install time or app boot.
post-it 3y ago
> or most intrusively, in half a dozen cases, preventing a program from working until I open the security preferences and find the "Allow" button. You can ctrl+right click and then press Open to bypass this and just show a warning with an "Open" button on it, fyi. After you do it once, it won't bug you for the same application.
yankput 3y ago
luckily the Windows experience is getting shittier too so we’re all stuck with macOS
acumenical 3y ago
> I have been besieged by dialogs, popups, and notifications asking me to give a program access to a file or removable disk or my downloads folder This is not MacOS's problem. This is an industry-wide problem where users are besieged by rude software that treats the user like an idiot and decides to do as it pleases regarding system configuration. It is not an exaggeration that it is a security nightmare. With dark patterns becoming the norm, I am happy to have MacOS limit which programs can access which resource, even if it means setup takes longer. The world you wistfully pine for, with well behaved software and operating systems that simply serve as a platform for programs, no longer exists.
- goosedragons 3y ago
  Linux, BSDs, keep to software in the repos and you get that. Apple treats all software as hostile even the stuff it ships. Having to give the terminal access to see my Documents folder is nuts AND confusing.

by masto 3y ago

CharlesW 3y ago

> I have been besieged by dialogs, popups, and notifications asking me to give a program access to a file or removable disk or my downloads folder, or "informing" me that a setting has been changed, or that something will run on startup, or most intrusively, in half a dozen cases, preventing a program from working until I open the security preferences and find the "Allow" button. I grant you, this experience sucks. Was it better before, when everything had carte blanche to do what it liked without your knowledge/consent? (My intent isn't to lead the witness — I have my preference, but am curious what you think.)

makeitdouble 3y ago
Not OP but pretty much in the same boat. > Was it better before, when everything had carte blanche to do what it liked without your knowledge/consent? Yes. The caveat is I'm using a very stable set of programs, that I spent a long time to decide if I was OK with giving access to a lot of my critical information. I'm using Karabiner since it exists, and it's a worse experience and performance as it is now than when it was running unprotected and full carte blanche. Same with Bitwarden, it already has all my life's passwords, giving it access to read my screen is just an additional annoyance. At some point VSCode could also go rogue, but I'll be more worried with it leaking my SSH keys than recording my face when I'm coding.
- cmsj 3y ago
  The caveat is that you know what you're doing. Most people don't. Computers are made for most people. The era of computers being made for people like us, is long gone. (We did this to ourselves, by constantly trying to make computers easier to use, and telling everyone else they should have one)
  - janfoeh 3y ago
    Yes, but … no. > (We did this to ourselves, by constantly trying to make computers easier to use, and telling everyone else they should have one) Agreed. However: most people never wanted a computer, they only wanted to do certain computer-y things. And they don't have to anymore! We now have this new breed of wondrous, computer-y devices which are less capable, but in return are also a lot easier to use. It's here, it's absolutely ubiquitous and it is roughly good enough most of the time. The worlds of "smart" devices and general computing machines could have, _should_ have coexisted perfectly next to each other. That Apple is slowly but surely merging the two is a massive, unnecessary, foolhardy mistake that is on them and them alone.
  - makeitdouble 3y ago
    Thing is, these people already have better options. Enterprise "businessy" people already have fully managed enterprise Windows, large education fleets and low computing needs organizations can be served by Chromebooks or iPads. We're the ones stuck in a state where linux is still too compromised, Windows lacks polish, and now macos has iOS-ified to the point it becomes an hinderance but without getting the real advantages (touch support etc.). I'm patientely waiting for a shift to happen, in the meantime jumping to Windows looks like the more pragmatic solution, how crazy it may sound.

kickaha 3y ago

[2008 me] fell in love with the "it just works" and "an actually usable GUI plus Unix under the hood" and "they actually sweat the small stuff" [...] [By 2018, say] The user-annoyance-factor difference between modern Windows and macOS is very slight. Could not have said it better myself.

LakeBoat 3y ago

>The user-annoyance-factor difference between modern Windows and macOS is very slight. You’re still wearing the rose-tinted glasses. MacOS is not able to (natively): 1. Allow the trackpad to scroll “natively” and a mouse to “normal” scroll. 2. Scale for an external display without a specific PPI. The PPI is so high there’s only a couple monitors that support it on the market. 3. Display crisp text on a non-high-PPI screen (as above). 4. Allow the user to edit or remove the horrendous mouse acceleration curve. 5. Allow users to select minimized windows with Alt+Tab. 6. Allow users to snap windows. 7. Etc etc. I’m stunned I can’t scale stuff on my 4k monitor, adjust the mouse, or be productive with alt-tab. Gorgeous hardware, but wow, I’m stunned you guys (and girls) can use this seriously.

1over137 3y ago
>Scale for an external display without a specific PPI. Be happy they still let you use non-Apple external monitors! :)
- LakeBoat 3y ago
  Ha! Hilarious you said that. I was planning on purchasing their display until I learned it’d take a decent effort to use it with my work laptop (windows). So, part way there?
  - LoganDark 3y ago
    Hell, you even need a custom third-party driver to use the multitouch trackpads on Windows. They are the best trackpads money can buy though, so I use one with my desktop.
kstrauser 3y ago
On the other hand, I read that as a laundry list of “things to make it work exactly like Windows”. I’ve used a Mac for a lot of years now and none of those have ever bothered me. I’m not saying you’re wrong for wanting them. I’m saying you’re wrong to assume that everyone else does, too.

morganw 3y ago

Used to be something Vista was laughed at for. Oh, how the turn tables https://youtu.be/0eEG5LVXdKo?t=637 https://youtu.be/0eEG5LVXdKo?t=637

Gigachad 3y ago
Things have improved a whole lot since then. Used to be that as soon as you opened any app, it just requested full admin access to everything. Now its that you try to share the screen and you get a popup asking if you want to allow sharing the screen. It's actionable now. You can use an app without allowing the permission request, and the permission request is tied to when you try to use the function rather than at install time or app boot.

post-it 3y ago

> or most intrusively, in half a dozen cases, preventing a program from working until I open the security preferences and find the "Allow" button. You can ctrl+right click and then press Open to bypass this and just show a warning with an "Open" button on it, fyi. After you do it once, it won't bug you for the same application.

yankput 3y ago

luckily the Windows experience is getting shittier too so we’re all stuck with macOS

acumenical 3y ago

> I have been besieged by dialogs, popups, and notifications asking me to give a program access to a file or removable disk or my downloads folder This is not MacOS's problem. This is an industry-wide problem where users are besieged by rude software that treats the user like an idiot and decides to do as it pleases regarding system configuration. It is not an exaggeration that it is a security nightmare. With dark patterns becoming the norm, I am happy to have MacOS limit which programs can access which resource, even if it means setup takes longer. The world you wistfully pine for, with well behaved software and operating systems that simply serve as a platform for programs, no longer exists.

goosedragons 3y ago
Linux, BSDs, keep to software in the repos and you get that. Apple treats all software as hostile even the stuff it ships. Having to give the terminal access to see my Documents folder is nuts AND confusing.