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> Satellite telecommunication is greatly improving life on earth. Astrophysics, not so much. Hard disagree for me. Astrophysics have previously confirmed some

> Satellite telecommunication is greatly improving life on earth. Astrophysics, not so much. Hard disagree for me. Astrophysics have previously confirmed some radical scientific theories that eventually gave rise to technology today such as Einstein’s General Relativity. Starlink has done nothing for me.

joe__f 3y ago
Astrophysics was a key starting point for discovering Newtonian mechanics, Newton was thinking about gravity and planetary motion. Hard to understate how much impact Newtonian mechanics has had on the world.
- vosper 3y ago
  Newton died 300 years ago. What have developments in astrophysics contributed to “real world” problems in the last 50 years?
  - clouddrover 3y ago
    The Global Positioning System is possible through the understanding of relativity. Einstein wasn't thinking about GPS satellites when he came up with relativity, he was just trying to understand how nature works. And a greater understanding of the fundamental workings of nature is what makes more things possible.
    - vosper 3y ago
      Ok, we’re getting closer - general relativity was 107 years ago. Anything in the last 50?
      - clouddrover 3y ago
        Relativity has been continuously worked on for the last century. It's not "old", it's current. Gravity waves are a prediction of relativity. LIGO was built to confirm they exist. It took a long time to build LIGO and a long time to make it work. But eventually it did work in 2016 and sure enough gravity waves exist: https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/ https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO Black holes are a prediction of relativity. But black holes weren't imaged until 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2319/first-image-of-a-black-hole/ https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2319/first-image-of-a... The predictive power, the depth of the results, and the work it takes to confirm the predictions of relativity is all a testament to Einstein's genius. If anything, Einstein is underrated.
        vosper 3y ago
        I don’t think I said Einstein is underrated or that relativity isn’t interesting. I asked what astrophysics had contributed to the “Real world” in the last 50 years. Sounds like mostly “jobs for astrophysicists and builders of astrophysics equipment”. Maybe something developed for LIGO etc will find its way out of the world astrophysics, but so far I don’t think we’ve established a benefit that provided by Starlink-like systems (just my opinion, obviously)
        senttoschool 3y ago
        Maybe we should quit the field of physics and just stand still as a human species so that people living in rural places can use Instagram and TikTok.
      - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
        Let's write off whole research institution, because everything what they could invent or discover has been invented or discovered. https://medium.com/swlh/everything-that-can-be-invented-has-been-invented-49c4376f548b https://medium.com/swlh/everything-that-can-be-invented-has-...
        vosper 3y ago
        Where did I say that? The top-of-thread claim was that > This article frames the problem as if the value proposition of the science and the satellites is remotely similar. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Satellite telecommunication is greatly improving life on earth. Astrophysics, not so much. I was just trying to find out what astrophysics has contributed to life on earth lately (50 years seems like a generous window) because I’m inclined to agree with the claim but would like to know if I’m wrong.
        nazgul17 3y ago
        A quick search returned this article which contains a decent list which includes recent works: https://www.iau.org/public/themes/astronomy_in_everyday_life/ https://www.iau.org/public/themes/astronomy_in_everyday_life... I picked one entry because it has the word "tumor" in it: > Radio astronomers developed a method that is now used as a non-invasive way to detect tumours. By combining this with other traditional methods, there is a true-positive detection rate of 96% in breast cancer patients (Barret et al., 1978). This article also seems to contain a decent analysis: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/1635/chapter/14#313 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/1635/chapter/14#313 Disclaimer: I only skimmed the articles.
      - joe__f 3y ago
        Some key parts of the Internet were developed at CERN in the 80s, as a by product of funding research in high energy particle physics. As I understand, a motivation for Stephen Wolfram developing the Wolfram language was to develop ideas he has that the universe is inherently computational on a fundamental scale. I read an article recently where he had linked up the Wolfram language with ChatGPT, producing more correct answers and less bullshit. It looked quite impressive. (I respect that it's important to subtract a Wolfram ego factor from articles he writes before you can really appreciate how impressive his results are)
gizmo686 3y ago
Relativity isn't a technology. The only technology I can think of that it enabled is GPS. However, we probably would have gotten there anyway. We knew from terrestial experiments that the speed of light is finite. That is pretty much the only insight needed to come up with GPS. Relativity is needed to make the calculations correct; however if you are in a position where Relativity breaks your system then you have essentially conducted an experiment confirming relativity.
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > Relativity isn't a technology. It is when physicists are talking about it. Physicists often use the word technology to refer to a mathematical means by which something can be calculated, not a machine or a device.
- fragmede 3y ago
  > probably would have gotten there anyway I don't think we would have make the gps satellite constellation if we didn't think it would work in the first place though, at which point we wouldn't have gotten there.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > only technology I can think of that it enabled is GPS Sat-to-sat laser communication, as Starlink envisions, requires tight understanding of the Earth’s general relativistic properties as well as the satellites’ special relativity. If the choice were Starlink or no more astrophysics, the answer would be clear to the point of justifying military intervention by third parties. It’s not. It’s Starlink or particular kinds of astrophysical observation from the ground. That’s a more careful balance, and one that can be mitigated by e.g. increasing funding for those experiments on space-based platforms.
- nazgul17 3y ago
  Apparently, GPS satellites themselves use quasars to accurately determine their own positions.
aeternum 3y ago
Starlink will soon let you contact emergency services from anywhere on earth. It might save your life.
- Kye 3y ago
  My phone can already do that with existing satellites.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    not all phones have that feature. enabling that for more people, globally, especially those less economically advantaged should be seen as a good thing, though whether the cost of that is worth it is the current discussion we're having.

joe__f 3y ago

Astrophysics was a key starting point for discovering Newtonian mechanics, Newton was thinking about gravity and planetary motion. Hard to understate how much impact Newtonian mechanics has had on the world.

vosper 3y ago
Newton died 300 years ago. What have developments in astrophysics contributed to “real world” problems in the last 50 years?
- clouddrover 3y ago
  The Global Positioning System is possible through the understanding of relativity. Einstein wasn't thinking about GPS satellites when he came up with relativity, he was just trying to understand how nature works. And a greater understanding of the fundamental workings of nature is what makes more things possible.
  - vosper 3y ago
    Ok, we’re getting closer - general relativity was 107 years ago. Anything in the last 50?
    - clouddrover 3y ago
      Relativity has been continuously worked on for the last century. It's not "old", it's current. Gravity waves are a prediction of relativity. LIGO was built to confirm they exist. It took a long time to build LIGO and a long time to make it work. But eventually it did work in 2016 and sure enough gravity waves exist: https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/ https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LIGO Black holes are a prediction of relativity. But black holes weren't imaged until 2019: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2319/first-image-of-a-black-hole/ https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/resources/2319/first-image-of-a... The predictive power, the depth of the results, and the work it takes to confirm the predictions of relativity is all a testament to Einstein's genius. If anything, Einstein is underrated.
      - vosper 3y ago
        I don’t think I said Einstein is underrated or that relativity isn’t interesting. I asked what astrophysics had contributed to the “Real world” in the last 50 years. Sounds like mostly “jobs for astrophysicists and builders of astrophysics equipment”. Maybe something developed for LIGO etc will find its way out of the world astrophysics, but so far I don’t think we’ve established a benefit that provided by Starlink-like systems (just my opinion, obviously)
        senttoschool 3y ago
        Maybe we should quit the field of physics and just stand still as a human species so that people living in rural places can use Instagram and TikTok.
    - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
      Let's write off whole research institution, because everything what they could invent or discover has been invented or discovered. https://medium.com/swlh/everything-that-can-be-invented-has-been-invented-49c4376f548b https://medium.com/swlh/everything-that-can-be-invented-has-...
      - vosper 3y ago
        Where did I say that? The top-of-thread claim was that > This article frames the problem as if the value proposition of the science and the satellites is remotely similar. This couldn’t be farther from the truth. Satellite telecommunication is greatly improving life on earth. Astrophysics, not so much. I was just trying to find out what astrophysics has contributed to life on earth lately (50 years seems like a generous window) because I’m inclined to agree with the claim but would like to know if I’m wrong.
        nazgul17 3y ago
        A quick search returned this article which contains a decent list which includes recent works: https://www.iau.org/public/themes/astronomy_in_everyday_life/ https://www.iau.org/public/themes/astronomy_in_everyday_life... I picked one entry because it has the word "tumor" in it: > Radio astronomers developed a method that is now used as a non-invasive way to detect tumours. By combining this with other traditional methods, there is a true-positive detection rate of 96% in breast cancer patients (Barret et al., 1978). This article also seems to contain a decent analysis: https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/1635/chapter/14#313 https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/1635/chapter/14#313 Disclaimer: I only skimmed the articles.
    - joe__f 3y ago
      Some key parts of the Internet were developed at CERN in the 80s, as a by product of funding research in high energy particle physics. As I understand, a motivation for Stephen Wolfram developing the Wolfram language was to develop ideas he has that the universe is inherently computational on a fundamental scale. I read an article recently where he had linked up the Wolfram language with ChatGPT, producing more correct answers and less bullshit. It looked quite impressive. (I respect that it's important to subtract a Wolfram ego factor from articles he writes before you can really appreciate how impressive his results are)

gizmo686 3y ago

Relativity isn't a technology. The only technology I can think of that it enabled is GPS. However, we probably would have gotten there anyway. We knew from terrestial experiments that the speed of light is finite. That is pretty much the only insight needed to come up with GPS. Relativity is needed to make the calculations correct; however if you are in a position where Relativity breaks your system then you have essentially conducted an experiment confirming relativity.

clouddrover 3y ago
> Relativity isn't a technology. It is when physicists are talking about it. Physicists often use the word technology to refer to a mathematical means by which something can be calculated, not a machine or a device.
fragmede 3y ago
> probably would have gotten there anyway I don't think we would have make the gps satellite constellation if we didn't think it would work in the first place though, at which point we wouldn't have gotten there.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> only technology I can think of that it enabled is GPS Sat-to-sat laser communication, as Starlink envisions, requires tight understanding of the Earth’s general relativistic properties as well as the satellites’ special relativity. If the choice were Starlink or no more astrophysics, the answer would be clear to the point of justifying military intervention by third parties. It’s not. It’s Starlink or particular kinds of astrophysical observation from the ground. That’s a more careful balance, and one that can be mitigated by e.g. increasing funding for those experiments on space-based platforms.
nazgul17 3y ago
Apparently, GPS satellites themselves use quasars to accurately determine their own positions.

aeternum 3y ago

Starlink will soon let you contact emergency services from anywhere on earth. It might save your life.

Kye 3y ago
My phone can already do that with existing satellites.
- fragmede 3y ago
  not all phones have that feature. enabling that for more people, globally, especially those less economically advantaged should be seen as a good thing, though whether the cost of that is worth it is the current discussion we're having.