3 ms·

Tail vaccination in cats: a pilot study (2014)

45 points by hammock 3y ago

gus_massa 3y ago
Relevant information about this cancer in cats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma
fanatic2pope 3y ago
"Vaccine site-associated sarcomas were renamed as injection site-associated sarcomas as an acknowledgement that they can occur after injection of a variety of medications, including antibiotics, long-acting corticosteroids and insulin." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X13483239?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X13483239?ur...
- hammock 3y ago
  Great clarification. People ought to know that a lot of vaccine skepticism is related to excipients and not the actual vaccine. All types of injectable preparations tend to contain preservatives, for example, some of which (like thimerosal) have been controversial in the past
tguvot 3y ago
we discovered "injection site-associated sarcoma" on our cat year ago. it took 6 months till the end. meds didn't help
- leeoniya 3y ago
  same, but in 2016 :( at least we suspected that's what the cause was since it was in the upper hind leg / near base of tail. cat was healthy for 9yrs before this.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    Our was 14. Never got this official diagnosis, but given location of tumor.... Well, Israeli street cat average lifespan is 1-2 years. You can say that he got 9 lifes
- kelnos 3y ago
  I'm so sorry to hear that :'( Ever since I read about VAS/FISS last year, I've been re-evaluating our cat's vaccination needs, especially since he's indoor-only and doesn't interact with other cats. I'll continue to get him the three-year FVRCP and rabies vaccines, since they're pretty terrible diseases, and the former three are super contagious, but FeLV and FIV seem unnecessary considering his circumstances.
  - tguvot 3y ago
    I'll suggest every now and then (couple of weeks) to feel your cat through the skin in order to early discover any growth. When we discovered tumor it was too big to remove (it went from his neck to hind leg on one side of backbone)
firstlink 3y ago
[flagged]
- lisper 3y ago
  If there's evidence it's not disinformation. Not all false claims are disinformation. And if the evidence is mistaken, you need to provide evidence for that claim. You can't just assume a priori that any claim about a link between vaccines and cancer must be false.
  - firstlink 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - sfteus 3y ago
      This isn't anti-vaccine propaganda. This is a real issue that specifically affects cats, and is extremely well documented. In addition, this paper investigates alternative injection sites that reduce occurence while still providing the benefits of vaccination, not avoiding vaccination entirely. It would be extremely bad anti-vaccine propaganda if that was the intent.
    - tekla 3y ago
      Its really hard to take seriously calling others stupid while saying "I believe science" with a straight face.
    - dang 3y ago
      We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments and ignoring our request to stop (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36037817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36037817). Regardless of how right you are or feel you are, you can't post abusively like this. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- tekla 3y ago
  This isn't disinformation, its a well known issue. How does it feel to propagate disinfo yourself?
015UUZn8aEvW 3y ago
1-10 per 10,000 seems like a fairly high number if it's "associated with high mortality".
PAPPPmAc 3y ago
The vet my cats get their routine care at has switched to suggesting intranasal for most routine vaccines in cats. The evidence seems to be that intranasal conveys a slightly better immunity (possibly by specifically sensitizing the mucous membranes) and avoids the small but well-characterized injection-site sarcoma risk, at the cost of a 30% chance of some minor cold-like side effects for a few days.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Is this available for the rabies vaccine too, or just for FVRCP?
  - PAPPPmAc 3y ago
    I don't think there is an intranasal feline rabies vaccine available, but the booster schedule is now out to 3 years.
kelnos 3y ago
Cats seem to be a bit over-vaccinated these days. The FeLV (feline leukemia) and FIV (cat HIV) vaccines are pretty silly to administer outside of high-risk situations. Indoor-only cats who've tested negative and don't interact with other cats really don't need them. Despite this (with guidance along these lines provided over 10 years ago), many vets still push at least the FeLV vaccine. I got our cat his latest FeLV shot last fall after he turned two, but I don't think I'll be continuing it in the future. There are now three-year versions of the FVRCP and rabies vaccines that can be given once the cat is no longer a kitten, which should cut the risk of injection site sarcoma by quite a bit. I probably wouldn't recommend against rabies vaccination, since contracting it is a death sentence. The three diseases FVRCP protects against are all super contagious and pretty dangerous, so same deal there. I was reading about vaccine-associated sarcoma / injection site-associated sarcoma last year, and it seems pretty scary. You have to notice and recognize it pretty much immediately, and perform surgery. Often removing the tumor isn't enough, and you have to amputate the limb, assuming you get to it quickly enough, before it spreads to the rest of the body. This is why current guidance is to give cats the shots as far away from the main body as possible, as doing so makes it easier to remove any tumors that might result. (And even then, there's still often recurrence, even when "successful".) If vaccinating via the tail is just as effective as the hind leg, this seems like a win. Amputation sucks no matter how you dice it, but I think a cat will recover better and more fully after a partial tail amputation, over a limb (even partial) amputation. I do wonder how widespread tail vaccination is, though. I've never heard of it, even though this paper was published nine years ago. Our vet definitely doesn't do it.
- tguvot 3y ago
  this kind of over-vaccination is required by most boarding facilities.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  I've read a few articles over the years about the vaccination schedule for cats and how its not necessarily driven by medical reasons. Given that information, and that I live in a rabies free country, my cats got the first vaccinations and the follow up boosters when they were kittens, and then at 4 years old. I would look to getting them vaccinated again at 10 unless there's a good reason for doing it earlier. Good reasons would include travel, a new disease/vaccination is available - basically the same reasons for getting a vaccination myself.

45 points by hammock 3y ago

Relevant information about this cancer in cats https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine-associated_sarcoma

fanatic2pope 3y ago

"Vaccine site-associated sarcomas were renamed as injection site-associated sarcomas as an acknowledgement that they can occur after injection of a variety of medications, including antibiotics, long-acting corticosteroids and insulin." https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X13483239?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200pubmed https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1098612X13483239?ur...

hammock 3y ago
Great clarification. People ought to know that a lot of vaccine skepticism is related to excipients and not the actual vaccine. All types of injectable preparations tend to contain preservatives, for example, some of which (like thimerosal) have been controversial in the past

tguvot 3y ago

we discovered "injection site-associated sarcoma" on our cat year ago. it took 6 months till the end. meds didn't help

leeoniya 3y ago
same, but in 2016 :( at least we suspected that's what the cause was since it was in the upper hind leg / near base of tail. cat was healthy for 9yrs before this.
- tguvot 3y ago
  Our was 14. Never got this official diagnosis, but given location of tumor.... Well, Israeli street cat average lifespan is 1-2 years. You can say that he got 9 lifes
kelnos 3y ago
I'm so sorry to hear that :'( Ever since I read about VAS/FISS last year, I've been re-evaluating our cat's vaccination needs, especially since he's indoor-only and doesn't interact with other cats. I'll continue to get him the three-year FVRCP and rabies vaccines, since they're pretty terrible diseases, and the former three are super contagious, but FeLV and FIV seem unnecessary considering his circumstances.
- tguvot 3y ago
  I'll suggest every now and then (couple of weeks) to feel your cat through the skin in order to early discover any growth. When we discovered tumor it was too big to remove (it went from his neck to hind leg on one side of backbone)

firstlink 3y ago

[flagged]

lisper 3y ago
If there's evidence it's not disinformation. Not all false claims are disinformation. And if the evidence is mistaken, you need to provide evidence for that claim. You can't just assume a priori that any claim about a link between vaccines and cancer must be false.
- firstlink 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - sfteus 3y ago
    This isn't anti-vaccine propaganda. This is a real issue that specifically affects cats, and is extremely well documented. In addition, this paper investigates alternative injection sites that reduce occurence while still providing the benefits of vaccination, not avoiding vaccination entirely. It would be extremely bad anti-vaccine propaganda if that was the intent.
  - tekla 3y ago
    Its really hard to take seriously calling others stupid while saying "I believe science" with a straight face.
  - dang 3y ago
    We've banned this account for repeatedly posting flamewar comments and ignoring our request to stop (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36037817 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36037817). Regardless of how right you are or feel you are, you can't post abusively like this. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tekla 3y ago
This isn't disinformation, its a well known issue. How does it feel to propagate disinfo yourself?

015UUZn8aEvW 3y ago

1-10 per 10,000 seems like a fairly high number if it's "associated with high mortality".

PAPPPmAc 3y ago

The vet my cats get their routine care at has switched to suggesting intranasal for most routine vaccines in cats. The evidence seems to be that intranasal conveys a slightly better immunity (possibly by specifically sensitizing the mucous membranes) and avoids the small but well-characterized injection-site sarcoma risk, at the cost of a 30% chance of some minor cold-like side effects for a few days.

kelnos 3y ago
Is this available for the rabies vaccine too, or just for FVRCP?
- PAPPPmAc 3y ago
  I don't think there is an intranasal feline rabies vaccine available, but the booster schedule is now out to 3 years.

kelnos 3y ago

Cats seem to be a bit over-vaccinated these days. The FeLV (feline leukemia) and FIV (cat HIV) vaccines are pretty silly to administer outside of high-risk situations. Indoor-only cats who've tested negative and don't interact with other cats really don't need them. Despite this (with guidance along these lines provided over 10 years ago), many vets still push at least the FeLV vaccine. I got our cat his latest FeLV shot last fall after he turned two, but I don't think I'll be continuing it in the future. There are now three-year versions of the FVRCP and rabies vaccines that can be given once the cat is no longer a kitten, which should cut the risk of injection site sarcoma by quite a bit. I probably wouldn't recommend against rabies vaccination, since contracting it is a death sentence. The three diseases FVRCP protects against are all super contagious and pretty dangerous, so same deal there. I was reading about vaccine-associated sarcoma / injection site-associated sarcoma last year, and it seems pretty scary. You have to notice and recognize it pretty much immediately, and perform surgery. Often removing the tumor isn't enough, and you have to amputate the limb, assuming you get to it quickly enough, before it spreads to the rest of the body. This is why current guidance is to give cats the shots as far away from the main body as possible, as doing so makes it easier to remove any tumors that might result. (And even then, there's still often recurrence, even when "successful".) If vaccinating via the tail is just as effective as the hind leg, this seems like a win. Amputation sucks no matter how you dice it, but I think a cat will recover better and more fully after a partial tail amputation, over a limb (even partial) amputation. I do wonder how widespread tail vaccination is, though. I've never heard of it, even though this paper was published nine years ago. Our vet definitely doesn't do it.

tguvot 3y ago
this kind of over-vaccination is required by most boarding facilities.
jemmyw 3y ago
I've read a few articles over the years about the vaccination schedule for cats and how its not necessarily driven by medical reasons. Given that information, and that I live in a rabies free country, my cats got the first vaccinations and the follow up boosters when they were kittens, and then at 4 years old. I would look to getting them vaccinated again at 10 unless there's a good reason for doing it earlier. Good reasons would include travel, a new disease/vaccination is available - basically the same reasons for getting a vaccination myself.