4 ms·

But they are part of Schengen, which for the purpose of attracting talent is at least a partial replacement.

by Timon3 3y ago

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
Being part of the Schengen area mostly means that (in many cases) you don't have to show your passport or identity card when crossing borders between Schengen area countries. It is not clear to me what difference this makes for attracting talents.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Schengen countries do not need long stay or work visas. That’s huge to attract talents. See https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/ https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/
  - blibble 3y ago
    freedom of movement of workers is completely distinct from Schengen e.g. as an EU citizen you can work in Ireland without a visa, which is not part of Schengen
    - dgellow 3y ago
      It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA. Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. The EU is messy.
      - blibble 3y ago
        > It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA the EFTA is not a superset of Schengen, they are completely different treaties and are unrelated (other than the fact all EFTA countries also separately signed the Schengen agreement) > Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. Ireland is not "part of" (signatory of) EFTA, it is however part of the EEA > The EU is messy. EFTA is not the EU, and originally Schengen was nothing to do with the EC either
        dgellow 3y ago
        I meant a superset in the sense that the set of members is basically Schengen plus a few other countries. But you’re right, I mixed up EFTA and EEA. To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen, the country offers visa free long stay and the possibility to work there without the hassle of getting a work permit. All of this, plus high wages is a great way to attract talents from neighboring countries.
        blibble 3y ago
        > To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen neither of which have anything to do with freedom of movement of workers Switzerland is the worst example you could have picked, it is the only example of a EFTA country that is not in the EEA and not subject to the freedom of movement rules in the same way what you should have said originally was EEA (not Schengen) venn diagram: https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/181472254_10158056656085983_2274395597726986642_n.jpg https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/0...
        dgellow 3y ago
        Great to know. Whatever the correct acronym is doesn’t change the point. No visa required for long stay and work is what makes it attractive.
        blibble 3y ago
        it's sort of missing the main point, the main obstacle is and always has been: language in terms of the UK, an order of magnitude more emigrated outside of the EU than exercising freedom of movement within it (despite having to put up with stuff like visas)
        dgellow 3y ago
        Yes, language is for sure an obstacle, that's totally valid. I'm originally from the French-speaking region of Switzerland, even just moving to a different canton within the country can be daunting due to the fact that we have 3 languages (not counting Romansh, it isn't really used), and people only speak decent English in the most international cities: Geneva and Zurich. I'm in the minority of European who would love to see English being adopted as a sort of official common second-language. That will never happen but I think it would be fantastic if the region would feel less fragmented.
- lbreakjai 3y ago
  EU citizens can also settle in those countries without a visa, which they can not anymore in the UK. It makes it more attractive for candidates, and easier for employers.
- atoav 3y ago
  Tell me that you never worked in another Schengen country without telling me you worked in another Schengen country. Schengen means: - employees don't need a visa (they also don't need to deal with the insecurity of not getting that visa extended, or being tied to one company that can exploit them) - employees can use their home countries health insurance (although when they live there for longer it makes sense to get a local one instead) - retirement funds - not to start with all the things that are easier for employers If I move somewhere it is not just my work that moves there, it is my whole life. I might find love in your country, I might have family and for that reason I need security that I cannot be thrown out on a whim just because some clerk decided they don't wanna extend my visa anymore until I jump through 50 more hoops. If I am in a seeked after profession why would I even bother to go there if the rest of the EU is much simpler to go to and friendlier towards me? Because Britain is a great empire? Probably not. The only thing UK got going for it is the language, and quite frankly it is not that big of an advantage as one would think it is. I guess someone who only speaks english will not have a hard time living in Berlin or Vienna for example.

But they are part of Schengen, which for the purpose of attracting talent is at least a partial replacement.

by Timon3 3y ago

But they are part of Schengen, which for the purpose of attracting talent is at least a partial replacement.

Being part of the Schengen area mostly means that (in many cases) you don't have to show your passport or identity card when crossing borders between Schengen area countries. It is not clear to me what difference this makes for attracting talents.

dgellow 3y ago
Schengen countries do not need long stay or work visas. That’s huge to attract talents. See https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/ https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/
- blibble 3y ago
  freedom of movement of workers is completely distinct from Schengen e.g. as an EU citizen you can work in Ireland without a visa, which is not part of Schengen
  - dgellow 3y ago
    It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA. Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. The EU is messy.
    - blibble 3y ago
      > It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA the EFTA is not a superset of Schengen, they are completely different treaties and are unrelated (other than the fact all EFTA countries also separately signed the Schengen agreement) > Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. Ireland is not "part of" (signatory of) EFTA, it is however part of the EEA > The EU is messy. EFTA is not the EU, and originally Schengen was nothing to do with the EC either
      - dgellow 3y ago
        I meant a superset in the sense that the set of members is basically Schengen plus a few other countries. But you’re right, I mixed up EFTA and EEA. To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen, the country offers visa free long stay and the possibility to work there without the hassle of getting a work permit. All of this, plus high wages is a great way to attract talents from neighboring countries.
        blibble 3y ago
        > To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen neither of which have anything to do with freedom of movement of workers Switzerland is the worst example you could have picked, it is the only example of a EFTA country that is not in the EEA and not subject to the freedom of movement rules in the same way what you should have said originally was EEA (not Schengen) venn diagram: https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/181472254_10158056656085983_2274395597726986642_n.jpg https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/0...
        dgellow 3y ago
        Great to know. Whatever the correct acronym is doesn’t change the point. No visa required for long stay and work is what makes it attractive.
        blibble 3y ago
        it's sort of missing the main point, the main obstacle is and always has been: language in terms of the UK, an order of magnitude more emigrated outside of the EU than exercising freedom of movement within it (despite having to put up with stuff like visas)
        dgellow 3y ago
        Yes, language is for sure an obstacle, that's totally valid. I'm originally from the French-speaking region of Switzerland, even just moving to a different canton within the country can be daunting due to the fact that we have 3 languages (not counting Romansh, it isn't really used), and people only speak decent English in the most international cities: Geneva and Zurich. I'm in the minority of European who would love to see English being adopted as a sort of official common second-language. That will never happen but I think it would be fantastic if the region would feel less fragmented.
lbreakjai 3y ago
EU citizens can also settle in those countries without a visa, which they can not anymore in the UK. It makes it more attractive for candidates, and easier for employers.
atoav 3y ago
Tell me that you never worked in another Schengen country without telling me you worked in another Schengen country. Schengen means: - employees don't need a visa (they also don't need to deal with the insecurity of not getting that visa extended, or being tied to one company that can exploit them) - employees can use their home countries health insurance (although when they live there for longer it makes sense to get a local one instead) - retirement funds - not to start with all the things that are easier for employers If I move somewhere it is not just my work that moves there, it is my whole life. I might find love in your country, I might have family and for that reason I need security that I cannot be thrown out on a whim just because some clerk decided they don't wanna extend my visa anymore until I jump through 50 more hoops. If I am in a seeked after profession why would I even bother to go there if the rest of the EU is much simpler to go to and friendlier towards me? Because Britain is a great empire? Probably not. The only thing UK got going for it is the language, and quite frankly it is not that big of an advantage as one would think it is. I guess someone who only speaks english will not have a hard time living in Berlin or Vienna for example.