3 ms·

Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Othe

Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Otherwise, I’m not particularly interested in having a COVID conversation.

mardifoufs 3y ago
It's not a conversation about COVID. It's one about contact tracing. And yes I think that evidence should always be required when talking about potential tools for such mass surveillance. "It makes sense" isn't really proof for anything, as the last pandemic has proven times and times again. For example here in Quebec, contact tracing apps and tracking location of everyone with covid has had pretty much no measurable effect. Even fundamental questions like "what is a contact" are hard to answer, so actual studies might be helpful for this conversation. And again, even tracing infectious contacts was much easier with mass tracking of every single citizens location, that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic. It might be! Which is why I was asking for good evidence.
- BoxFour 3y ago
  > that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic You're arguing against ghosts. That is not what I said, or even implied. I wrote: > It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. Tracking movement is obviously helpful for contact tracing, because you can track the proximity of individuals to each other and warn those who were near a confirmed case. I wrote absolutely nothing on whether contact tracing is impactful, and I wrote nothing about whether you could accomplish the same result in a different way. The usefulness of contract tracing is not a conversation I wish to engage in.
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    Ok, how do you define a contact then? How can it be evident that tracking locations is obviously helpful for contact tracing without defining what it means to trace a contact? That's why evidence would be helpful here. How does knowing a location helps with determining a contact, especially for coarser tracking like know where someone is travelling. You keep repeating that it is obvious and again, saying that something is just... obvious is not enough when discussing dangerous, almost "dual use" methods like contact tracing using mass tracking.
    - BoxFour 3y ago
      > Ok, how do you define a contact then? You'll have to ask the Chinese CDC, I'm sure they have an answer for you much like our own CDCs do. It's usually some combination of time and distance proximity to a confirmed COVID case.
      - mardifoufs 3y ago
        I'll actually look into it, it sounds more interesting now that I started reading about it. Sorry if my comments sounded antagonistic, I was genuinely wondering. I'll dive into the rabbit hole now!
- classichasclass 3y ago
  Contact tracing (contact investigation, etc.) is a standard practice in public health. In tuberculosis control where I got my start, it's what we do for any active case of TB we identify - we find the people who may have been exposed and widen the circle as necessary. It's also critical for STDs. The only difference with COVID was the scale, not the methodology. There is an argument that if the disease is everywhere, people can be infected anywhere, and you would need an accordingly exponential increase in monitoring scale to pull any kind of signal from the noise floor. But the principles work for any disease. source: TB control physician for 17 years
  - mardifoufs 3y ago
    I agree but do we use mass tracking for stuff like tuberculosis and STDs? And agreed also that my point is probably more true for COVID than anything else. The scale of COVID is such that it automatically requires mass tracking to even consider contact tracing, but I guess my argument was that even then we should have evidence that such massive tracking improves contact tracing for very infectious viruses like COVID. I'm genuinely asking, not in a "just asking questions" manner here. So thanks for replying! I didn't know contact tracing was useful for TB too.
    - danielharan 3y ago
      I live in Québec. We never had mass tracking - this was FUD about the app, which did NOT share data... and that level of privacy protection is also why it was difficult to prove its positive impact. What we did have was public health which sometimes managed to call people after a positive result - to warn their contacts, so they don't infect others in turn. This is absolutely standard for public health for many illnesses, and helps reduce contagion. Neither of those is mass tracking. Public health doesn't report you if you went to see prostitutes or used illegal drugs; their job is to stop chains of transmission, and contact the people you were around. That's true for TB as mentioned, as well as smallpox, Ebola, etc Anyways, since you're in Québec you might be interested in this figure, selecting the 0-49 demographic. Public health isn't telling us about this, or simple methods to reduce risk. Hell, HEPA filters are still near impossible to install in schools. https://statistique.quebec.ca/fr/document/surmortalite-hebdomadaire/publication/surmortalite-hebdomadaire-selon-groupe-dage-quebec https://statistique.quebec.ca/fr/document/surmortalite-hebdo...
- FormerBandmate 3y ago
  The Chinese Communist Party doesn’t give a shit whether it stops Covid or not. The technology isn’t exactly hard and they’re not doing it with US tech companies
FormerBandmate 3y ago
Contact tracing is also phenomenal cover for increasing surveillance on people, and China’s a dictatorship so no one can really complain that much. You can do things like spend more on cameras, use Bluetooth beacons to determine people’s locations even when they’re not sharing them, monitor highway traffic more, crack down on people traveling with strangers, so much surveillance tech has contact tracing related uses and unlike America, the loss of privacy is a positive for the government
Our_Benefactors 3y ago
> Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Ok, I don’t think it’s obvious so let’s have that conversation. Do you have any examples you can share where contact tracing lead to less restrictions compared to another area that did not engage in contact tracing? My intuition is that no such example can be proven, which relegates contract tracing to nothing more than a faithkeeping exercise.
- BoxFour 3y ago
  > Do you have any examples you can share where contact tracing lead to less restrictions compared to another area that did not engage in contact tracing? I recommend thoroughly reviewing what I wrote that you quoted, and then contemplating the relevance of your question to the topic at hand. If it helps, the effectiveness of contact tracing is not relevant to the discussion.
mensetmanusman 3y ago
We would also have to track all the animals that could carry Covid to be accurate. That's hard to do...
- Timon3 3y ago
  Why? Do you have any proof that humans were infected by animals in more than a few cases?
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    Covid has been carried by multiple domestic creatures and supposedly 'started' with a single animal to human contact. Because you only need one, and the R0 is so high, missing animals is a huge hole in tracking.
    - Timon3 3y ago
      > Covid has been carried by multiple domestic creatures and supposedly 'started' with a single animal to human contact. That wasn't my question. > Because you only need one, and the R0 is so high, missing animals is a huge hole in tracking. You only "need one" for what? To infect a person? Obviously if you don't track animal to human contacts you will miss an animal to human contact if an animal to human infection occurred. But there are thousands of infections per day. Contact tracing is unlikely to be 100% reliable over all cases. So what do you "only need one" for? To increase case load by one? I genuinely don't know what you're trying to get at. If over all of Corona let's say 10 people got infected by animals, and you miss them. What happens then? Should we also track rock to human infections? Maybe they could happen, and we only need to miss one...

mardifoufs 3y ago

It's not a conversation about COVID. It's one about contact tracing. And yes I think that evidence should always be required when talking about potential tools for such mass surveillance. "It makes sense" isn't really proof for anything, as the last pandemic has proven times and times again. For example here in Quebec, contact tracing apps and tracking location of everyone with covid has had pretty much no measurable effect. Even fundamental questions like "what is a contact" are hard to answer, so actual studies might be helpful for this conversation. And again, even tracing infectious contacts was much easier with mass tracking of every single citizens location, that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic. It might be! Which is why I was asking for good evidence.

BoxFour 3y ago
> that still doesn't mean it is actually useful to stop a pandemic You're arguing against ghosts. That is not what I said, or even implied. I wrote: > It is evident that having knowledge of individuals' travel destinations would undoubtedly assist in contact tracing efforts. Tracking movement is obviously helpful for contact tracing, because you can track the proximity of individuals to each other and warn those who were near a confirmed case. I wrote absolutely nothing on whether contact tracing is impactful, and I wrote nothing about whether you could accomplish the same result in a different way. The usefulness of contract tracing is not a conversation I wish to engage in.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  Ok, how do you define a contact then? How can it be evident that tracking locations is obviously helpful for contact tracing without defining what it means to trace a contact? That's why evidence would be helpful here. How does knowing a location helps with determining a contact, especially for coarser tracking like know where someone is travelling. You keep repeating that it is obvious and again, saying that something is just... obvious is not enough when discussing dangerous, almost "dual use" methods like contact tracing using mass tracking.
  - BoxFour 3y ago
    > Ok, how do you define a contact then? You'll have to ask the Chinese CDC, I'm sure they have an answer for you much like our own CDCs do. It's usually some combination of time and distance proximity to a confirmed COVID case.
    - mardifoufs 3y ago
      I'll actually look into it, it sounds more interesting now that I started reading about it. Sorry if my comments sounded antagonistic, I was genuinely wondering. I'll dive into the rabbit hole now!
classichasclass 3y ago
Contact tracing (contact investigation, etc.) is a standard practice in public health. In tuberculosis control where I got my start, it's what we do for any active case of TB we identify - we find the people who may have been exposed and widen the circle as necessary. It's also critical for STDs. The only difference with COVID was the scale, not the methodology. There is an argument that if the disease is everywhere, people can be infected anywhere, and you would need an accordingly exponential increase in monitoring scale to pull any kind of signal from the noise floor. But the principles work for any disease. source: TB control physician for 17 years
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  I agree but do we use mass tracking for stuff like tuberculosis and STDs? And agreed also that my point is probably more true for COVID than anything else. The scale of COVID is such that it automatically requires mass tracking to even consider contact tracing, but I guess my argument was that even then we should have evidence that such massive tracking improves contact tracing for very infectious viruses like COVID. I'm genuinely asking, not in a "just asking questions" manner here. So thanks for replying! I didn't know contact tracing was useful for TB too.
  - danielharan 3y ago
    I live in Québec. We never had mass tracking - this was FUD about the app, which did NOT share data... and that level of privacy protection is also why it was difficult to prove its positive impact. What we did have was public health which sometimes managed to call people after a positive result - to warn their contacts, so they don't infect others in turn. This is absolutely standard for public health for many illnesses, and helps reduce contagion. Neither of those is mass tracking. Public health doesn't report you if you went to see prostitutes or used illegal drugs; their job is to stop chains of transmission, and contact the people you were around. That's true for TB as mentioned, as well as smallpox, Ebola, etc Anyways, since you're in Québec you might be interested in this figure, selecting the 0-49 demographic. Public health isn't telling us about this, or simple methods to reduce risk. Hell, HEPA filters are still near impossible to install in schools. https://statistique.quebec.ca/fr/document/surmortalite-hebdomadaire/publication/surmortalite-hebdomadaire-selon-groupe-dage-quebec https://statistique.quebec.ca/fr/document/surmortalite-hebdo...
FormerBandmate 3y ago
The Chinese Communist Party doesn’t give a shit whether it stops Covid or not. The technology isn’t exactly hard and they’re not doing it with US tech companies

FormerBandmate 3y ago

Contact tracing is also phenomenal cover for increasing surveillance on people, and China’s a dictatorship so no one can really complain that much. You can do things like spend more on cameras, use Bluetooth beacons to determine people’s locations even when they’re not sharing them, monitor highway traffic more, crack down on people traveling with strangers, so much surveillance tech has contact tracing related uses and unlike America, the loss of privacy is a positive for the government

Our_Benefactors 3y ago

> Are you asking for evidence that knowing everyone’s locations and travel itineraries would assist in contact tracing? Because I think that one is obvious. Ok, I don’t think it’s obvious so let’s have that conversation. Do you have any examples you can share where contact tracing lead to less restrictions compared to another area that did not engage in contact tracing? My intuition is that no such example can be proven, which relegates contract tracing to nothing more than a faithkeeping exercise.

BoxFour 3y ago
> Do you have any examples you can share where contact tracing lead to less restrictions compared to another area that did not engage in contact tracing? I recommend thoroughly reviewing what I wrote that you quoted, and then contemplating the relevance of your question to the topic at hand. If it helps, the effectiveness of contact tracing is not relevant to the discussion.

mensetmanusman 3y ago

We would also have to track all the animals that could carry Covid to be accurate. That's hard to do...

Timon3 3y ago
Why? Do you have any proof that humans were infected by animals in more than a few cases?
- mensetmanusman 3y ago
  Covid has been carried by multiple domestic creatures and supposedly 'started' with a single animal to human contact. Because you only need one, and the R0 is so high, missing animals is a huge hole in tracking.
  - Timon3 3y ago
    > Covid has been carried by multiple domestic creatures and supposedly 'started' with a single animal to human contact. That wasn't my question. > Because you only need one, and the R0 is so high, missing animals is a huge hole in tracking. You only "need one" for what? To infect a person? Obviously if you don't track animal to human contacts you will miss an animal to human contact if an animal to human infection occurred. But there are thousands of infections per day. Contact tracing is unlikely to be 100% reliable over all cases. So what do you "only need one" for? To increase case load by one? I genuinely don't know what you're trying to get at. If over all of Corona let's say 10 people got infected by animals, and you miss them. What happens then? Should we also track rock to human infections? Maybe they could happen, and we only need to miss one...