3 ms·

> Politic borders are sometimes more significant than geographic ones Switzerland and Norway are also not in the EU.

by aleph_minus_one 3y ago

Timon3 3y ago
But they are part of Schengen, which for the purpose of attracting talent is at least a partial replacement.
- aleph_minus_one 3y ago
  Being part of the Schengen area mostly means that (in many cases) you don't have to show your passport or identity card when crossing borders between Schengen area countries. It is not clear to me what difference this makes for attracting talents.
  - dgellow 3y ago
    Schengen countries do not need long stay or work visas. That’s huge to attract talents. See https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/ https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/
    - blibble 3y ago
      freedom of movement of workers is completely distinct from Schengen e.g. as an EU citizen you can work in Ireland without a visa, which is not part of Schengen
      - dgellow 3y ago
        It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA. Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. The EU is messy.
        blibble 3y ago
        > It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA the EFTA is not a superset of Schengen, they are completely different treaties and are unrelated (other than the fact all EFTA countries also separately signed the Schengen agreement) > Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. Ireland is not "part of" (signatory of) EFTA, it is however part of the EEA > The EU is messy. EFTA is not the EU, and originally Schengen was nothing to do with the EC either
        dgellow 3y ago
        I meant a superset in the sense that the set of members is basically Schengen plus a few other countries. But you’re right, I mixed up EFTA and EEA. To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen, the country offers visa free long stay and the possibility to work there without the hassle of getting a work permit. All of this, plus high wages is a great way to attract talents from neighboring countries.
        blibble 3y ago
        > To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen neither of which have anything to do with freedom of movement of workers Switzerland is the worst example you could have picked, it is the only example of a EFTA country that is not in the EEA and not subject to the freedom of movement rules in the same way what you should have said originally was EEA (not Schengen) venn diagram: https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/181472254_10158056656085983_2274395597726986642_n.jpg https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/0...
        dgellow 3y ago
        Great to know. Whatever the correct acronym is doesn’t change the point. No visa required for long stay and work is what makes it attractive.
        3y ago
  - lbreakjai 3y ago
    EU citizens can also settle in those countries without a visa, which they can not anymore in the UK. It makes it more attractive for candidates, and easier for employers.
  - atoav 3y ago
    Tell me that you never worked in another Schengen country without telling me you worked in another Schengen country. Schengen means: - employees don't need a visa (they also don't need to deal with the insecurity of not getting that visa extended, or being tied to one company that can exploit them) - employees can use their home countries health insurance (although when they live there for longer it makes sense to get a local one instead) - retirement funds - not to start with all the things that are easier for employers If I move somewhere it is not just my work that moves there, it is my whole life. I might find love in your country, I might have family and for that reason I need security that I cannot be thrown out on a whim just because some clerk decided they don't wanna extend my visa anymore until I jump through 50 more hoops. If I am in a seeked after profession why would I even bother to go there if the rest of the EU is much simpler to go to and friendlier towards me? Because Britain is a great empire? Probably not. The only thing UK got going for it is the language, and quite frankly it is not that big of an advantage as one would think it is. I guess someone who only speaks english will not have a hard time living in Berlin or Vienna for example.
atoav 3y ago
Yet somehow it is easier for me, an Austrian, to go to Switzerland than to the UK. Schengen might have to do something with it. But guess who did not like the "free travel" part? Also Switzerland and Norway have both been in huge diplomatic efforts to align as well with the EU as possible where it made sense for them. This non-membership certainly wasn't free — but those two nations could afford it. Not so sure about the UK here. I have seen interviews with brits that were surprised that leaving Schengen also means they cannot travel freely within the EU. They basically wanted all the goodies without being part and the rest of the EU should accept it because it is them. Maybe the only positive thing about Brexit is that the total dillusion caused by decades of UK politicians and media blaming everything on the EU might now show some cracks and reveal that it was really just a way to scam their own people all along.

> Politic borders are sometimes more significant than geographic ones Switzerland and Norway are also not in the EU.

Timon3 3y ago

But they are part of Schengen, which for the purpose of attracting talent is at least a partial replacement.

aleph_minus_one 3y ago
Being part of the Schengen area mostly means that (in many cases) you don't have to show your passport or identity card when crossing borders between Schengen area countries. It is not clear to me what difference this makes for attracting talents.
- dgellow 3y ago
  Schengen countries do not need long stay or work visas. That’s huge to attract talents. See https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/ https://visaguide.world/europe/switzerland-visa/long-stay/
  - blibble 3y ago
    freedom of movement of workers is completely distinct from Schengen e.g. as an EU citizen you can work in Ireland without a visa, which is not part of Schengen
    - dgellow 3y ago
      It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA. Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. The EU is messy.
      - blibble 3y ago
        > It’s not completely distinct, it’s a superset of Schengen called EFTA the EFTA is not a superset of Schengen, they are completely different treaties and are unrelated (other than the fact all EFTA countries also separately signed the Schengen agreement) > Ireland is part of EFTA but not Schengen. Ireland is not "part of" (signatory of) EFTA, it is however part of the EEA > The EU is messy. EFTA is not the EU, and originally Schengen was nothing to do with the EC either
        dgellow 3y ago
        I meant a superset in the sense that the set of members is basically Schengen plus a few other countries. But you’re right, I mixed up EFTA and EEA. To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen, the country offers visa free long stay and the possibility to work there without the hassle of getting a work permit. All of this, plus high wages is a great way to attract talents from neighboring countries.
        blibble 3y ago
        > To go back to the original point, Switzerland is in both EFTA and Schengen neither of which have anything to do with freedom of movement of workers Switzerland is the worst example you could have picked, it is the only example of a EFTA country that is not in the EEA and not subject to the freedom of movement rules in the same way what you should have said originally was EEA (not Schengen) venn diagram: https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/181472254_10158056656085983_2274395597726986642_n.jpg https://i2.wp.com/thisbugslife.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/0...
        dgellow 3y ago
        Great to know. Whatever the correct acronym is doesn’t change the point. No visa required for long stay and work is what makes it attractive.
        3y ago
- lbreakjai 3y ago
  EU citizens can also settle in those countries without a visa, which they can not anymore in the UK. It makes it more attractive for candidates, and easier for employers.
- atoav 3y ago
  Tell me that you never worked in another Schengen country without telling me you worked in another Schengen country. Schengen means: - employees don't need a visa (they also don't need to deal with the insecurity of not getting that visa extended, or being tied to one company that can exploit them) - employees can use their home countries health insurance (although when they live there for longer it makes sense to get a local one instead) - retirement funds - not to start with all the things that are easier for employers If I move somewhere it is not just my work that moves there, it is my whole life. I might find love in your country, I might have family and for that reason I need security that I cannot be thrown out on a whim just because some clerk decided they don't wanna extend my visa anymore until I jump through 50 more hoops. If I am in a seeked after profession why would I even bother to go there if the rest of the EU is much simpler to go to and friendlier towards me? Because Britain is a great empire? Probably not. The only thing UK got going for it is the language, and quite frankly it is not that big of an advantage as one would think it is. I guess someone who only speaks english will not have a hard time living in Berlin or Vienna for example.

atoav 3y ago

Yet somehow it is easier for me, an Austrian, to go to Switzerland than to the UK. Schengen might have to do something with it. But guess who did not like the "free travel" part? Also Switzerland and Norway have both been in huge diplomatic efforts to align as well with the EU as possible where it made sense for them. This non-membership certainly wasn't free — but those two nations could afford it. Not so sure about the UK here. I have seen interviews with brits that were surprised that leaving Schengen also means they cannot travel freely within the EU. They basically wanted all the goodies without being part and the rest of the EU should accept it because it is them. Maybe the only positive thing about Brexit is that the total dillusion caused by decades of UK politicians and media blaming everything on the EU might now show some cracks and reveal that it was really just a way to scam their own people all along.