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To those of you thinking of debating the above, remember, you cannot win the word game. The more you oppose someone telling you not to use a word, the more raci

To those of you thinking of debating the above, remember, you cannot win the word game. The more you oppose someone telling you not to use a word, the more racist you appear, no matter the actual origins of the word in question. It simply doesn't matter. The only way to not be seen as a racist is to apologize and use whatever words they tell you to use.

tekla 3y ago
No. The thing to do is ignore the dumb and irrational and continue to use normal words like "blacklist" and "whitelist"
- peddling-brink 3y ago
  I don’t think any rational people are offended by the word “blacklist”. I do think there is some validity to the change. Black lists are lists of bad things that need to be blocked or prevented, white lists are things that are good and allowed and wanted. That does create an unsavory connotation with the words themselves. Furthermore, as someone in an industry that used blacklist and whitelist extensively, noobs screw up those words all the time. It’s not a very clear word. Blocklist and allowlist are much less ambiguous.
  - phatskat 3y ago
    This is the correct response. The origins of the terms are less important here, and often people get hung up on them. Whitelist and blacklist are indeed ambiguous, and they also create negative connotations that could reinforce other, actually racist views and language, whether conscious or not.
  - flangola7 3y ago
    I most enjoy the terminology updates because anyone that throws a fit about the change outs themselves as a can of worms and a person to keep away from your life or payroll. IME it's a heuristic with 100% accuracy.
    - getmeinrn 3y ago
      This reads like you enjoy antagonizing people, so I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Who would want to work with/for someone who enjoys agitating their peers or subordinates? Do you ask them their stance on abortion and free speech too?
jncfhnb 3y ago
You can also win this game 99% of the time by just not living in California. It’s really just a local power struggle that some people mistakenly believe is a national dialogue.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  It might blow your mind, but did you know there are even other countries in the world that are not the USA?
blueflow 3y ago
You are the person attributing a racial issue to random words. But hey, i can do that, too: > no matter the actual origins of the word in question > The only way to not be seen as a racist is to apologize and use whatever words they tell you to use. Please stop using the words "debating", "win", "game", "oppose", "racist", "apologize". They are highly offensive and racist vocabulary.
Spivak 3y ago
And the reason for this is because for most people a word substation is a zero effort change that simply doesn't matter one way or another. And if one way is better for whatever reason then sure, why not? One side cares because they're trying to eliminate bias and be inclusive, the other side cares because…? "words have meaning": this is a right wing dog whistle, even if you are a true language prescriptivist no one will believe you. "it's stupid": just makes you look like an asshole when someone is trying to do something people see as in good faith. "it's pointless": then why does it matter one way or another? Goto other reason. "it's not racist": when we're talking about blacklists it never was, it's about trying to not always associate black with the negative connotation, but you look really racist for wanting to keep it. "black outside the context of race does have negative connotations in humans, you can't change that we're afraid of the dark": now you look really really racist.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- getmeinrn 3y ago
  Have you ever considered that people don't like being told how to behave by unlikable people? And that language policing by definition makes you unlikable? When was the last time you told someone not to use a word and they said "you know what, I like being told how not to speak." ? It's maybe the quickest way to tell everyone that you're insufferable. So basically you're "proving" to yourself that everyone is either racist or an asshole, by creating a situation where people don't want to listen to you because you're insufferable. But you can pretend to be virtuous because you're doing it for some make believe greater good about the word "whitelist." BTW I'm actually trying to help you see the reason there's resistance. I use "allowlist" and "denylist" voluntarily in my OSS repos, because it doesn't really matter to me. But I still find people who make it their moral imperative to police these words insufferable. From my perspective, you either don't know that, which shows you have no tact, or you don't care, which shows that you're doing this in bad faith.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    You're writing this like I don't agree with you and do the exact same thing. Explaining the social dynamics at play doesn't mean I agree with them. > When was the last time you told someone not to use a word Literally never. Again you assume a lot about me. I am speaking purely from the perspective of being told to use different words. It's never really bothered me. My response has always been "sure whatever." Some of them are a stretch but a lot of them make sense. No one has ever made me to feel bad about it. Clearly someone hurt you and made you feel bad and I'm sorry for that.

tekla 3y ago

No. The thing to do is ignore the dumb and irrational and continue to use normal words like "blacklist" and "whitelist"

peddling-brink 3y ago
I don’t think any rational people are offended by the word “blacklist”. I do think there is some validity to the change. Black lists are lists of bad things that need to be blocked or prevented, white lists are things that are good and allowed and wanted. That does create an unsavory connotation with the words themselves. Furthermore, as someone in an industry that used blacklist and whitelist extensively, noobs screw up those words all the time. It’s not a very clear word. Blocklist and allowlist are much less ambiguous.
- phatskat 3y ago
  This is the correct response. The origins of the terms are less important here, and often people get hung up on them. Whitelist and blacklist are indeed ambiguous, and they also create negative connotations that could reinforce other, actually racist views and language, whether conscious or not.
- flangola7 3y ago
  I most enjoy the terminology updates because anyone that throws a fit about the change outs themselves as a can of worms and a person to keep away from your life or payroll. IME it's a heuristic with 100% accuracy.
  - getmeinrn 3y ago
    This reads like you enjoy antagonizing people, so I'm sure the feeling is mutual. Who would want to work with/for someone who enjoys agitating their peers or subordinates? Do you ask them their stance on abortion and free speech too?

jncfhnb 3y ago

You can also win this game 99% of the time by just not living in California. It’s really just a local power struggle that some people mistakenly believe is a national dialogue.

jupp0r 3y ago
It might blow your mind, but did you know there are even other countries in the world that are not the USA?

blueflow 3y ago

You are the person attributing a racial issue to random words. But hey, i can do that, too: > no matter the actual origins of the word in question > The only way to not be seen as a racist is to apologize and use whatever words they tell you to use. Please stop using the words "debating", "win", "game", "oppose", "racist", "apologize". They are highly offensive and racist vocabulary.

Spivak 3y ago

And the reason for this is because for most people a word substation is a zero effort change that simply doesn't matter one way or another. And if one way is better for whatever reason then sure, why not? One side cares because they're trying to eliminate bias and be inclusive, the other side cares because…? "words have meaning": this is a right wing dog whistle, even if you are a true language prescriptivist no one will believe you. "it's stupid": just makes you look like an asshole when someone is trying to do something people see as in good faith. "it's pointless": then why does it matter one way or another? Goto other reason. "it's not racist": when we're talking about blacklists it never was, it's about trying to not always associate black with the negative connotation, but you look really racist for wanting to keep it. "black outside the context of race does have negative connotations in humans, you can't change that we're afraid of the dark": now you look really really racist.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
getmeinrn 3y ago
Have you ever considered that people don't like being told how to behave by unlikable people? And that language policing by definition makes you unlikable? When was the last time you told someone not to use a word and they said "you know what, I like being told how not to speak." ? It's maybe the quickest way to tell everyone that you're insufferable. So basically you're "proving" to yourself that everyone is either racist or an asshole, by creating a situation where people don't want to listen to you because you're insufferable. But you can pretend to be virtuous because you're doing it for some make believe greater good about the word "whitelist." BTW I'm actually trying to help you see the reason there's resistance. I use "allowlist" and "denylist" voluntarily in my OSS repos, because it doesn't really matter to me. But I still find people who make it their moral imperative to police these words insufferable. From my perspective, you either don't know that, which shows you have no tact, or you don't care, which shows that you're doing this in bad faith.
- Spivak 3y ago
  You're writing this like I don't agree with you and do the exact same thing. Explaining the social dynamics at play doesn't mean I agree with them. > When was the last time you told someone not to use a word Literally never. Again you assume a lot about me. I am speaking purely from the perspective of being told to use different words. It's never really bothered me. My response has always been "sure whatever." Some of them are a stretch but a lot of them make sense. No one has ever made me to feel bad about it. Clearly someone hurt you and made you feel bad and I'm sorry for that.